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09:56 < waxwing> oh he's gone, perhaps he figured it out
09:56 < waxwing> if i'm reading it right, we now have trezor, ledger and i *think* samourai that'll be using bip49, so that's nice if so.
09:57 < waxwing> i can't quite figure out what's going on with electrum, it seems it'll be a while plus that's a kind of complicated case since it's used in so many different modes
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10:52 < waxwing> i noticed some chatter about segwit support updates, so posted to https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org/compare/master...AdamISZ:patch-1
10:54 < belcher> any idea how many segwit yield generators there are?
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10:54 < belcher> you could tell by using -p (pick makers) i think
10:56 < waxwing> sorry that was completely stupid, closed it. i need to learn to read :)
10:56 < waxwing> belcher, i'm just finishing off ob-watcher for the new version. needed to fiddle with some things.
10:57 < waxwing> everyone asked the same thing of course. fwiw there are 6 segwit bots in the pit right now.
10:57 < belcher> ah cool
10:58 < belcher> hmm thats not much, i wonder if its because the yieldgenerator tutorial teaches how to run it with joinmarket-org/joinmarket rather than clientserver
11:00 < waxwing> people have to move coins across first. i don't see much rush really. i know there's a fair few people that know about it.
11:01 < belcher> how hard would it be to add segwit to joinmarket-org ?
11:02 < waxwing> not that hard really. it's not exactly fun work though. the amount of testing is crazy.
11:03 < waxwing> as you know there were a few different reasons i wanted to re-architect. i would just prefer to work with the new design, because it greatly helps with various things like, making code that uses it (like Qt stuff, but others too), and other things like being able to run the messaging daemon on a vps or something
11:03 < waxwing> but it's just unfortunate that you guys (or anyone really apart from eduard) weren't really available to look at it/discuss aspects of that re-architecting.
11:04 < belcher> yeah
11:04 < waxwing> belcher, oh hang on i misread
11:04 < waxwing> you mean to move it to joinmarket-org? yes i'd like to do that now
11:04 < belcher> is there anything stopping us just merging the new architecture into the old? is it missing some features
11:05 < belcher> more like overwriting than merging even
11:05 < waxwing> ok so you *are* talking about joinmarket-org/joinmarket, not just joinmarket-org?
11:05 < waxwing> for that, yes i thought about it; it would make sense *if* we thought the new design was definitely better/right.
11:06 < waxwing> because we could preserve people's contributions in the history. but it would involve monster delete/recreate commits.
11:06 < belcher> thats okay
11:06 < belcher> yeah i was talking about joinmarket-org/joinmarket 
11:07 < belcher> another name for it could be the version which doesnt use twisted
11:07 < waxwing> so how about i move the repo into joinmarket-org now (still called joinmarket-cs), then we wait and see what issues people have running it.
11:07 < waxwing> yes it's all a bit tricky isn't it.
11:07 < waxwing> the problem i had with this is, i couldn't just work in a branch really because it was a complete ground-up reworking (as in directory structure and whatnot).
11:08 < waxwing> hmm that could have been a branch i guess but it almost seems pointless.
11:08 < waxwing> because the first new commit would be to delete everything :)
11:08 < belcher> we could do that as long as it had all the same features, e.g. the wallet history thing
11:09 < belcher> (i dont know what other features it would be, i havent looked at any code in weeks)
11:09 < belcher> only because a new version which misses some features tends to make people not upgrade
11:09 < waxwing> yeah there are a few like that. you'll see two of them in the issues list.
11:09 < waxwing> one of the things that makes working on this very hard is exactly the huge range of features :)
11:10 < belcher> yeah
11:11 < belcher> ok well one of them is patientsendpayment, nobody really uses that
11:11 < waxwing> yeah would be good if they did though. but .. true.
11:11 < belcher> so maybe it could be skipped for now, not let it hold up a merge
11:11 < belcher> again sorry im not available to do any coding lately
11:12 < waxwing> well i can just move it into the -org repo for now and someone can add a link to it in the readme
11:12 < waxwing> np i know you're busy
11:12 < belcher> one last thing to check, are all the interfaces the same
11:12 < waxwing> interfaces?
11:12 < belcher> e.g. if before the update you have to write --fast and afterwards you write --fast-sync, or something like that
11:12 < waxwing> those. yes they are the same except there's a couple of extra options. 
11:13 < belcher> ideally people who dont follow development would just download the new version and keep using it the same, without even knowing a big merge happened
11:13 < belcher> then merging it seems like a good idea
11:13 < belcher> and then you dont have to repeat the work adding segwit to non-twisted when its a codebase we'll be moving away from anyway
11:14 < waxwing> yes; but, i think we should not rush this.
11:14 < waxwing> hmm. could make it a branch, actually.
11:14 < waxwing> but it's really weird having a branch which is completely nuked so to speak. especially consider like, docs.
11:15 < waxwing> i put quite a bit of work into docs recently e.g. https://github.com/AdamISZ/joinmarket-clientserver/tree/master/docs
11:15 < waxwing> one thing that occurred to me recently belcher is that we really shouldn't have instructions in the wiki.
11:16 < waxwing> well, it's tricky, maybe more like some "extras" in a wiki, but mostly info, rather than instructions.
11:16 < waxwing> ok that's a bit of a sidetrack, not the biggest issue to be thinking about...
11:16 < belcher> why? a good thing about a wiki is anybody can edit it while in docs you need a github account and have to create a PR
11:16 < belcher> i was actually thinking the other way around like make joinmarket.cfg have less comments and move them to the wiki
11:17 < waxwing> so do you agree that as of right now, the logical thing to do is to move -clientserver into joinmarket-org/ and put a link to it in the readme of joinmarket-org/joinmarket ?
11:17 < belcher> put a link to what?
11:17 < waxwing> put a link to joinmarket-org/joinmarket-clientserver from joinmarket-org/joinmarket in its readme, so people know where the segwit version is currently housed
11:17 < belcher> ah yes, i do
11:18 < waxwing> yes, already one person expressed confusion about it, i'm sure more are quite confused.
11:18 < belcher> yes understandable, if they saw messages like "joinmarket now has segwit" but if they go to the /releases page they download a version without segwit
11:19 < waxwing> but i still think like, at *least* a few weeks before attempting to merge in some sense or other. apart from anything else, it's a bunch more work.
11:19 < waxwing> and it's not like we even *want* to remove the non-sw version, for some time. for several reasons.
11:19 < belcher> it might be worth making a reddit thread and other outreach just explaining the situation, like there is this great new architecture and if you want to help you should adopt it and tell us how it goes
11:19 < waxwing> one of which is, as you say, the new version is *not* a complete reimplementation, yet.
11:20 < waxwing> (like extra tools e.g. wallet-history). although i've done most of it, by now.
11:20 < waxwing> anyway i'll finish off ob-watcher now and then probably in a couple of days port the repo over.
11:22 < belcher> cool
11:24 < waxwing> belcher, re: wikis, edited instructions aren't particularly safe. that's what i meant.
11:24 < waxwing> afk back in a few mins
11:24 < belcher> oh right, so someone might edit "download this malware" before we notice
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14:05 < waxwing> ob-watcher.py is in scripts/obwatch on latest master commit if anyone wants to give it a try; there's a toggle button to switch on/off the non-segwit offers
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20:56  * adlai clears his throat
20:56 < adlai> if votes count for anything, my vote is against the default JM code being the segwit version
20:56  * adlai reclogs throat and sinks back into armchair
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21:16 < pigeons> thanks. I'm curious why?
21:34 < adlai> a variety of reasons, in no particular order:
21:34 < adlai> 1) "new is better" is a common fallacy
21:35 < gmaxwell> lower fees is better is a pretty objective bar though. :)
21:35 < adlai> 2) the whole point of a softfork is that people OPT-IN
21:36 < adlai> 3) color me paranoid, but i'd rather wait a couple halvings before flooring the accelerator on the miner bounty for ruining everybody's day
21:37 < gmaxwell> you realize that any reorg over 100 blocks immediately starts stealing enormous numbers of in-circulation coins, right
21:37 < gmaxwell> becuase it would take away the coinbase outputs...
21:38 < adlai> ;;calc 100 * 12.5
21:38 < gmaxwell> so unless you're going to argue that jm should blacklist all coins based on coinbase outputs after the point segwit locked in,  the exposure isn't increased.
21:38 < adlai> ... what?
21:39 < gmaxwell> adlai: if there is a reorg far back enough to deactivate segwit, it would also destroy virtually all joinmarket payments too, because they end up descended from coinbases outputs more recent than that.
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21:40 < adlai> everybody's day gets ruined not by a reorg, but by a theft-fork
21:40 < adlai> there is no way to know what nodes other than your own are validating.
21:43 < gmaxwell> adlai: that makes no sense, ... so you're instead of hypotizing a reorg you're hypothizing outright theft, so why not say that about _any_ output, including p2sh?
21:44 < gmaxwell> esp since you can actually go look and see the code in bitcoin unlimited that skips all script validation basedon block timestamps.
21:44  * adlai watches gmaxwell burn down the strawman. go get him!
21:44 < gmaxwell> it's not a strawman. wtf
21:45 < gmaxwell> rather you came up with a strawman: hypotizing that there is no way to be absolutely sure what other people validation, which is a spurrious argument because it basically suggests you shouldn't use anything.
21:45 < gmaxwell> I gave a concrete example of software at least a few people use that actually doesn't validate.
21:46 < gmaxwell> and what it doesn't validate is everything.
21:46 < adlai> the hypothetical situation of miners forking the network by taking SW outputs is indeed theft, according to the SW rules.
21:48 < gmaxwell> theft is some kind of useless value judgement that has little to do with the question of JM using it.
21:49 < gmaxwell> It's not permitted by the rules running basically universally on the network as far as anyone can tell.  If someone goes and breaks your rules and steals your coins, you'll ignore 'em.
21:49 < adlai> you're welcome to cross off reason #3 as absurd / far-fetched; i still think that upgrading the default behavior to the newest system, which by design is supposed to not force anyone to use it, is... hasty?
21:49 < gmaxwell> why are you conflating anyone being forced to use anything?
21:50 < adlai> i didn't say people are forced to use something. but changing default behavior, uh, changes the default behavior.
21:50 < gmaxwell> and I'm arguing because I think your arguments are weird;  e.g. falsely equating a default with being forced to use something.
21:51 < gmaxwell> okay, you can go on thinking that JM should be waiting 8 years to use segwit, and I will just lol then.
21:52 < adlai> "JM" isn't a single market anymore, and i'd be surprised if it returns to being one anytime soon
21:54 < adlai> one market has existed for two years, and by definition can't use SW. the other market has existed for a ~week, and by definition only uses SW. i think the default "if you want to use JM, run this" should lead people to the established market. if all JM volume shifts to the SW market overnight, then you can lol even more.
21:55 < gmaxwell> adlai: that would be a fine argument, compared to the ones you made earlier.
21:55 < gmaxwell> The "the one with more participants should be the default" okay, thats something I can buy.
21:56 < adlai> this is a real-time "conversation", not a drafted, redrafted, and edited solliloquy
21:56 < adlai> and engaging in any sort of "argument" over 20 hours after last waking up is probably a bad idea
21:57 < gmaxwell> Cheers
22:05 < adlai> goodnight
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