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03:16 < waxwing> belcher, https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/blob/master/jmclient/jmclient/blockchaininterface.py#L113-L114
03:17 < waxwing> re: coinswap ideas thanks, i think i'll build a 0.3.1 release next couple of days (i don't think anything blocks any more). after that i'll take a look, i want to understand that multi-tx thing.
03:33 < waxwing> belcher, another thing about polling which maybe slid under the radar: i realised at some point that the jsonrpc.py code creates a new connection per request ... so i've changed that. let me find the commit.
03:34 < waxwing> https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/commit/0274c72198c114d5b31b039c0664414fd667cd26#diff-08b568d1fcfc1d5056c3201309ff0e61
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03:45 < waxwing> quitobro (not here) : re: mac, there was a guy on here last week (trotskisomething..?) who had it set up on macos. still looking for someone to document it.
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04:22 < belcher> ah ty waxwing 
04:23 < belcher> yes reusing connections was an old issue https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket/issues/469
04:24 < MaxSan> belcher
04:24 < MaxSan> see pm ^^
04:41 < waxwing> arubi, as far as you know, would there be any problem running the install.sh script to upgrade? (i'm going to tag 0.3.1 which will mean the python package versions will go to 0.3.1)? it seems like it should be ok.
04:42 < waxwing> hmm iirc it creates the jmvenv env, i wonder what happens there
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05:56 < GitHub165> [joinmarket-clientserver] AdamISZ pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vdULJ
05:56 < GitHub165> joinmarket-clientserver/master 6bd5990 AdamISZ: add 0.3.1 release notes
06:01 < belcher> "It's now possible to have a wallet password be an empty string, and JoinMarket won't prompt for a password if so." <--- good for scripting
06:01 < waxwing> oh wait - did you write that? :)
06:02 < waxwing> is that something left over from a copy-paste? i think it might be
06:02 < belcher> i wrote the paragraph above
06:02 < waxwing> belcher, yes, i must have missed it when reviewing, did we have that in the main joinmarket before? i have a feeling we did?
06:03 < belcher> it was in the main joinmarket yes
06:03 < belcher> basically it tries the password '' first before asking
06:03 < waxwing> so you added it back here? it might have been one of the "stuff since nov 2016" that need to be added back
06:03 < belcher> if you copied over the code then joinmarket-cs probably has it too, looking now
06:03 < belcher> no i didnt add it, i didnt write that line i quoted
06:03 < waxwing> another one was the tx_fees > 144, we added that back.
06:04 < belcher> cool
06:04 < waxwing> you didn't write that line, right. i think i accidentally left it in from copy-pasting a previous release notes, oops :)
06:04 < belcher> ah makes sense
06:04 < waxwing> heh confusing as heck, i know
06:04 < waxwing> good thing someone reads this
06:07 < waxwing> so that's another task, need to go through the commits from ~nov 2016 and check which others are necessary to "add back". i may have mentioned that before, but keep forgetting it myself.
06:11 < belcher> so joinmarket-clientserver was split off in nov 2016 ?
06:12 < GitHub140> [joinmarket-clientserver] AdamISZ pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vdULH
06:12 < GitHub140> joinmarket-clientserver/master 8938a39 AdamISZ: Update package version numbers to 0.3.1...
06:13 < waxwing> belcher, yeah started it in that month
06:13 < belcher> ok     
06:14 < waxwing> somebody was actually using the electrum plugin based off it in like december believe it or not. i think january for sure.
06:51 < waxwing> arubi, ok tried on a vm, seems the workflow works fine with upgrade; just the prompt on overwrite of jmvenv, seems everything works fine.
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06:54 < arubi> oh ok.  I tried setting up qemu with some arm processor to try on raspbian but did not get it to work..  seems like it's harder than I thought
06:55 < GitHub152> [joinmarket-clientserver] AdamISZ force-pushed master from 8938a39 to 06283b3: https://git.io/v5bgz
06:55 < GitHub152> joinmarket-clientserver/master 06283b3 AdamISZ: Update package version numbers to 0.3.1...
07:00 < waxwing> arubi, same kind of error as that guy, or?
07:00 < arubi> oh no I just failed even before getting the OS to boot at all
07:01 < waxwing> oh lol
07:01 < waxwing> have you tried switching it off and on again?
07:02 < arubi> hehe I'll try and report back
07:55 < waxwing> pushed 0.3.1 as a release, if anyone's around please give the notes a read and/or check if the install upgrades correctly for you. it did for me on a vm (just overwrites the virtualenv).
07:56 < belcher> ill check now
07:57 < belcher> and then we make a reddit thread / bitcointalk post / tweet ?
07:57 < waxwing> sure yep, absolutely, if you'd like to do (one of or more) them please go ahead
07:59 < belcher> oh wait, upgrades
07:59 < belcher> i just downloaded the zip and did ./install.sh, theres no upgrade?
08:01 < waxwing> well if you do it in a different directory there's no upgrade right :)
08:01 < waxwing> if you do a `git pull` or `git checkout tags/tagname` then running ./install.sh will ask  you if you want to overwrite the venv directory it creates
08:01 < belcher> ok ill try that in a bit too
08:03 < belcher> ill move my yg coins to clientserver i think
08:03 < belcher> and its the weekend so cheap fees :
08:04 < waxwing> yeah i wish i had more reason to spend coins nowadays, it's pretty cheap. unless Jihan coin-blocks you ;)
08:07 < belcher> need to install cs on my always-on machine
08:07 < belcher> so walletnotify isnt needed anymore :)
08:07 < belcher> and you could just tunnel jsonrpc to a full node on another machine :D
08:11 < waxwing> belcher, wait, what did i miss. oh i see, it's only one way.
08:11 < waxwing> huh yes that's quite a significant point eh. is it?
08:11 < belcher> btw `git pull` and then `./install.sh` seemed to work
08:12 < waxwing> belcher, yes but it prompted you to overwrite the env, right
08:12 < waxwing> thing is for dev setups the install.sh isn't really any good, since it doesn't allow the egg-link thing, yet. we should add that as an option to the install.sh script. ping arubi 
08:13 < belcher> yep     
08:13 < arubi> alright, it's just a flag passed to setup.py right?
08:14 < waxwing> arubi, see setupall.py at the bottom about --develop. but the answer is yes.
08:14 < waxwing> oh but .. well i'm not sure how it plays out in practice, basically you want the effect of doing `pip install -e .` in each of the four package directories.
08:15 < waxwing> (while in the venv, of course)
08:15 < waxwing> resulting in .egg-link files in the site-packages directory, instead of the actual package being installed.
08:16 < waxwing> belcher, so remote Core install, thing is, my VPS is more constrained (quite a lot) than my laptop. but, it's interesting. ultimately we really want that HW wallet/cold wallet fix for proper long term passivity eh.
08:17 < arubi> I'll try it out.  I think it's already setup so it goes over the 4 directories and `pip install .`
08:17 < arubi> so adding an '-e' if a flag is passed to install.sh shouldn't be hard
08:17 < waxwing> belcher, also obv the idea of `jmdaemon` is want to run that remotely, no security issue (modulo privacy of messages conceivably being compromised)
08:17 < waxwing> arubi, right, it should be simple hopefully
08:19 < waxwing> wish i could fix better the binary build process via pyinstaller, could easily distribute binaries of joinmarketd and people wouldn't have to worry about it stealing btc.
08:19 < waxwing> but it's an unholy mess, i found today i wasn't completely set up to do it and i put it off (even for linux, let alone anything else)
08:22 < arubi> I wonder if install.sh works on windows' "linux subsystem"..  afaik it also has apt-get
08:23 < waxwing> yeah isn't it like  ubuntu based? vague possibly wrong memory
08:23 < waxwing> af     
08:23 < arubi> I think it's some ubuntu stuff yea, I never saw it in action really
08:26 < belcher> waxwing you have your yg on a VPS?
08:26 < belcher> well depends how many coins you have on it, but id find that risky
08:27 < belcher> iv got a cheap old laptop that lives in my wardrobe for the yieldgen
08:27 < belcher> (inb4 someone raids my house)
08:27 < belcher> well theres backups i can just transfer away though
08:33 < belcher> according to my quick internet searches, pencil the best thing to write your mnemonic seeds with
08:37 < arubi> cryptosteel <3 .  even has place for two seeds if you use 12 words for each
08:48 < belcher> $79 - $199 though, id rather use that to buy more bitcoins
08:49 < belcher> but that may just be my miser ways :)
08:52 < arubi> hehe, well I got the cheapest one fwiw.  80$ one time for something like that seems okay
08:52 < adlai> miser = wiser
08:53 < belcher> yeah but paper and a pencil cost less
08:54 < belcher> i think ill start r/bitcoinfrugaljerk hah
08:54 < arubi> haha
08:54 < belcher> "trezor for $50 ARE YOU INSANE?"
08:54 < adlai> handwriting is also a less obviously valuable thing
08:54 < belcher> "cryptosteel. BUT PAPER IS FREE"
09:00 < belcher> paper doesnt survive fire though, luckily you can write down the mnemonic phrase without the extension passphrase and give a copy to friends/family
09:00 < arubi> an extension passphrase sometimes doesn't survive a blow to the head
09:01 < arubi> that's what scares me the most really.  forgetting some passphrase that doesn't have a backup
09:02 < belcher> the extension passphrase is kept in my own home
09:03 < belcher> friends get the mnemonic phrase without passphrase
09:03 < arubi> ah okay.  I got the second part but thought the extension was only "in memory"
09:04 < belcher> i wouldnt like only having it in memory, sounds scary
09:04 < belcher> as you say, blow to the head
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10:30 < belcher> waxwing i think ill change the r/joinmarket sidebar
10:30 < belcher> at least until we merge /-clientserver into /joinmarket
10:33 < GitHub134> [joinmarket-clientserver] fivepiece opened pull request #90: install.sh accepts flags (master...installsh_develop) https://git.io/vdU4B
10:33 < waxwing> belcher, right, got it, makes sense. i'm keenly aware that so many services are still using '1' deposit addresses so even apart from inertia there's very strong reasons for the existing system to remain in place for quite a while. a shame but not surprising.
10:34 < belcher> joinmarket-clientserver can send to both p2pkh and p2sh
10:34 < belcher> coinjoins are visible on the blockchain anyway, so p2sh vs p2pkh shouldnt change the privacy much
10:35 < waxwing> belcher, yes it can, but we want to strongly disadvise that, it exposes the taker cjout
10:35 < waxwing> or did i miss a use-case for that
10:35 < belcher> if they use tumbler its fine, because its hard to go backwards to see where the btc came from
10:35 < belcher> single coinjoins dont provide much privacy in either case
10:36 < belcher> although, maybe its best to wait a bit more before promoting clientserver?
10:36 < belcher> although the sticky on the subreddit already suggests people go there, idk
10:36 < waxwing> well ok. but it's a big knock off the privacy. especially bad if you use 3 dest addrs and they're all p2pkh
10:36 < belcher> thats true
10:37 < waxwing> i just think it's fine to let people move over to it gradually depending on what their requirements are. if anyone is in a neutral position i'd hope they'd switch, but services offering '1' addresses really hurts it.
10:37 < belcher> ok then
10:37 < belcher> though then again, you can usually tell if an address is a service address or joinmarket address
10:37 < waxwing> i wonder if there's a list anywhere of which services (like exchanges) offer '3' deposits.
10:38 < belcher> and if you link them together you get the amount, and you can use amount correlation to find the origin maybe
10:38 < belcher> right now we have one mixdepth between the dest addresses, i wonder if we could have more than one
10:38 < waxwing> yes you're right it's more nuanced than i was thinking
10:38 < belcher> mixdepth N -> dest1, mixdepth N+3 -> dest2, etc
10:44 < waxwing> lol i just saw this https://twitter.com/BtcPowUpdate/status/907824010397974529
10:44 < waxwing> that's ... weird :)
10:46 < belcher> https://twitter.com/joinmarket/status/911647821958393859
10:47 < belcher> (coin trackers get hundreds of retweets, how many for our coinjoins in blue?)
10:47 < waxwing> it's nice of you to do that, very easy for me to re-twatter :)
10:48 < waxwing> adlai, thoughts? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKZ7At7UIAA_cI5.jpg:large
10:48 < waxwing> :)     
10:49 < arubi> fwiw I think waiting with segwit jm wallets is not a bad idea.  bech32 is not far off and will save up a lot for each input.  the fees will be noticeable 
10:49 < belcher> lisp as a broken fork is unfair IMO
10:49 < waxwing> hehe
10:49 < arubi> hehe I like the perl katana
10:49 < belcher> lol at c++ though
10:50 < adlai> thank you belcher 
10:50 < waxwing> arubi, yeah but consider, bech32 would ideally mean recipients as well using it. it's a higher bar for wallets. p2sh wrap you already get like 30%ish leg up and should have compatibility immediately. "should".
10:51 < waxwing> i know, the author's view of lisp vs. perl is difficult to reconcile :)
10:51 < waxwing> also makes me want to learn haskell :)
10:51 < belcher> btw i think ill tweet from @joinmarket something like "some people may have missed it, but joinmarket has a GUI, Electrum plugin, more stable sendpayment and tumbler that can be restarted if it crashes prematurely."
10:51 < belcher> or something like that
10:52 < belcher> didnt someone in paris tell adlai to make a joinmarket gui
10:52 < waxwing> belcher, don't tell them it has an electrum plugin, that is in limbo for now.
10:52 < arubi> it'll probably be easier to get services to use that because there aren't complicated scripts to bare p2wpkh and the wallet should support it natively
10:52 < arubi> unlike the p2sh wrapped scripts right now
10:52 < belcher> ok     
10:52 < belcher> p2sh addresses took like 18 months to have every wallet support sending to them
10:53 < waxwing> also the gui has the problem i was mentioning earlier about binaries. bit of a mess.
10:53 < belcher> so i think bech32 is going to be long
10:53 < belcher> do you think i should tweet about the gui then ?
10:53 < arubi> I think the difference is that p2sh didn't offer a lot of advantage over p2pkh if that's what you needed
10:53 < arubi> and bech32 p2wpkh does by a lot
10:54 < waxwing> this was my assumption as of the summer ... i didn't see a reason to think it'd be soon, but i thought (perhaps wrongly) that switch to p2sh wrap would be fast due to economic incentive + easy to do. that may prove wrong.
10:54 < arubi> you end up paying for the segwit script bytes as a pushed redeem script
10:54 < waxwing> also bech32 came fairly late in the cycle, for a long time we just had "bip142 is retracted" or whatever.
10:54 < belcher> the price of block space (like anything) is made at the margins and its quite inelastic
10:54 < belcher> a hard limit makes the price shoot up a lot
10:54 < arubi> it's not so much cheaper if the script is long
10:55 < arubi> and users wouldn't want to bother
10:55 < belcher> so it couldve been expected that small adoption of segwit would make miner fees drop hard
10:55 < arubi> but all that is solved with p2wpkh for users and services
10:55 < waxwing> arubi, well almost all of it will be p2sh/p2wpkh and you get a big chunk of savings in that case.
10:55 < arubi> you do, but keeping tabs on redeemscripts is not something people will bother with
10:56 < arubi> and bech32 solves that by being native to the wallet
10:56 < waxwing> it doesn't solve the problem of "transparently allow any other bitcoin wallet to pay to me". that's a big friction.
10:57 < arubi> I don't understand then
10:57 < arubi> isn't the point to have coinjoin in/outs look like payments to the services themselves?
10:57 < waxwing> oh we're talking about coinjoin, right, that's a different argument
10:58 < waxwing> i thought we were talking in general. but it bleeds through.
10:58 < waxwing> because ideally coinjoins will use the same addresses as genpop. although this point is debatable, as we were debating above.
10:58 < belcher> i think im going to take liberties with accuracy and put the Electrum plugin in a title in order to get more upvotes on reddit
10:59 < waxwing> lol     
10:59 < waxwing> "ACCS have arrived!"
10:59 < belcher> yup     
10:59 < waxwing> well i don't like it since in 2016 it was all "when electrum plugin?!" and then i did it and nobody cared.
10:59 < arubi> yea now I see what you mean, I'm saying that the fees saved by moving to bare p2w /and/ having the wallet take care of it might actually cause a quick shift,  maybe I'm too wishful :)
11:00 < belcher> waxwing most people in bitcoin are actually holders :p
11:00 < belcher> and users dont reddit that much i think
11:01 < belcher> it would be good if we could actually talk to users, but thats hard since they're probably busy doing economic activity with bitcoin and not hanging around on reddit
11:01 < waxwing> arubi, well i dunno, it's really hard to hit the moving target. like i said 6+ months ago bech32 was just becoming "the thing", before that it was bip142 is not going to be the thing, and we didn't know if segwit would happen at all, and what i heard from other projects is they were going with p2sh wrap first (which seems to be true from limited data)
11:02 < waxwing> so all things considered it seemed a much better bet to go with p2sh wrap. and what with block size also being a moving target, we couldn't know where fee pressure would be at.
11:02 < waxwing> people have been doing 5 sat/b coinjoins in the last few weeks. who the hell knows where we are next week ...
11:03 < arubi> maybe coinswaps :)
11:04 < waxwing> yes they should bring fees way down. and then part of the whole coinswap argument was hide-in-p2sh :)
11:04 < belcher> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/71ztnd/joinmarket_release_031_supports_segwit_has_a_gui/
11:04 < belcher> (XXXX gets hundreds of upvotes, how many for our YYYY in blue?)
11:04 < arubi> I said a long time ago that joinmarket would be a lot easier if everyone would just do it for free heh
11:04 < waxwing> hmm well technically it's hide-in-multisig but w/e
11:05 < waxwing> arubi, well yeah or even negative fees. it works.
11:05 < waxwing> belcher, what's the "blue" reference?
11:05 < arubi> good point
11:05 < belcher> its a meme
11:05 < belcher> it started "half-naked women get hundreds of upvotes, how many for our boys in blue?" and theres a picture of some police
11:05 < belcher> coinswap should just copy whatever bitgo does because their multisig does like 10% of all transactions or something
11:06 < waxwing> belcher, oic
11:06 < belcher> e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/62td2v/halfnaked_girls_get_thousands_of_upvotes_how_many/
11:06 < waxwing> 'electrum plugin and gui' is going to annoy people when they can't get those things
11:07 < belcher> the gui works doesnt it, installing is annoying because its command line
11:07 < belcher> but if you dont mind the command line installing is really easy
11:08 < waxwing> like i said in release notes, can't update the binaries though, super fragile custom process. they can use the 0.3.0 ones, should be OK i hope.
11:09 < waxwing> doing it from command line is OK if you can do the pyqt4 trick, but anyone in that scenario'll probably just use the command line anyway.
11:10 < waxwing> not release notes sorry, releases page
11:15 < waxwing> arubi, any thoughts on that disastrous raspi situation would be welcome. at the end of it all, he said it was actually stretch, not jessie.
11:15 < arubi> yea that's what he said from the beginning, debian 9
11:15 < waxwing> so while i could continue to witter on about secp256k1, it might be better to find a delta with @carlcrott's situation.
11:16 < arubi> the successful build was on jessie
11:16 < waxwing> but i fear he's just fed up with it now.
11:16 < waxwing> oh was it? who had a successful build on jessie?
11:16 < arubi> @carlcrott
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11:17 < arubi> but still, jessie, stretch, testing.. these all work at least for x86_64 
11:18 < waxwing> oh this is my lack of knowledge of raspi stuff. does his "raspi3 / rasbian" mean jessie, then?
11:18 < waxwing> well and lack of knowledge of debian, come to that...
11:18 < arubi> raspbian is a debian distro for the rpi, they're currently shipping stretch afaik
11:18 < arubi> and the previous was jessie which I bet a lot of people still run
11:19 < waxwing> ok. so how do you know he built it on jessie? maybe that question's irrelevant, sorry
11:19 < arubi> carlcrott?  that's what he said on the channel
11:19 < waxwing> oh, on channel, you mean here?
11:19 < arubi> at least I think it was him?  I can't find on autocomplete now
11:20 < arubi> delinquentme_ , I thought it was the same guy
11:20 < waxwing> yes i think so
11:20 < arubi> delinquentme_> Description: Raspbian GNU/Linux 8.0 (jessie)
11:20 < arubi> that's what he was running
11:21 < waxwing> understood. so it would actually be really good to find out the difference between their two situations, because i bet other people have hit a similar problem, like that msb300 whatever guy.
11:22 < arubi> yea.  I just don't have a pi.  I might have access to aarch64 hardware soon, but that's not what the pi's are running.. I think?
11:23 < arubi> anyway, if anybody is willing to set up a pi2\3 with current raspbian and open ssh,  let me know :)
11:23 < arubi> you can run it as a hidden service too!
11:23 < waxwing> so that's using "arm" is it? different cpu architecture? i've never even read about this stuff
11:24 < arubi> yea different cpu arch, so maybe some tweaks to compiling stuff..
11:24 < waxwing> right; so does it mean you can't set up a VM in the usual way?
11:24 < arubi> core takes care of libsecp256k1, but unless you actually install it system wide, that's now what you use for jm
11:24 < waxwing> yes     
11:25 < arubi> well I need to get qemu to load a kernel and initrd of some debian arm release and then hope netinstall boots up
11:25 < arubi> so I couldn't get that working with stretch stuff.  I did get wheezy netinstall to boot, but that failed after a while of getting packages.. missing package
11:26 < waxwing> right, as i thought, so it's possible but a much more difficult job (VM)
11:26 < arubi> I think it's too old now and packages moved to archives
11:26 < arubi> yea, pretty much
11:42 < arubi> oh waxwing now I realize mb300sd and sangaman are different people.  it might be that sangaman used sudo or something to install joinmarket
11:43 < arubi> or maybe used --user to install to some local cache at $HOME
11:43 < arubi> I'll ask
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13:01 < waxwing> belcher, lol tuur put an exclam after gui client
13:01 < belcher> where?
13:02 < waxwing> twitter
13:04 < belcher> ah     
13:25 < belcher> reading the code of yg-privacyenhance.py, the randomness sometimes means you get invalid sizes
13:25 < belcher> minsize/maxsize are randomly set but if they announce and amount too high or low then that would result in an error if a taker tries to fill it
13:33 < belcher> oh wait no i didnt read it carefully enough, its fine
13:33 < belcher> err wait no
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15:26 < belcher> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/71ztnd/joinmarket_release_031_supports_segwit_has_a_gui/dneyixs/?context=1
15:26 < belcher> ahahaha lol
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18:25 < delinquentme> so im reading the posts you gave me a few days back belcher... 
18:25 < delinquentme> "and the joining of past payments when they make larger transactions"
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20:01 < delinquentme> say I want to run a coinjoin ... is joinmarket the simplest/fastest way I can do this?  
20:02 < pigeons> I think so
20:24 < delinquentme> oiyyyy did I do something wrong here? I think im seeing 23 wallets in my wallets/ dir?
20:24 < delinquentme> is that normal?
20:40 < nkuttler> delinquentme: no
20:41 < delinquentme> nkuttler, you have just 1 right?
20:47 < nkuttler> delinquentme: yeah
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23:19 < delinquentme> "More complicated implementations are possible where even the server doesn't learn the mapping."
23:20 < delinquentme> So i just realized this ... and it makes sense... the server that we use for transactions has knowledge of those transactions yes?
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