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[~delinquen@108-235-112-153.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:10 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@108-235-112-153.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #joinmarket 12:15 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@108-235-112-153.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:20 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@108-235-112-153.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #joinmarket 12:40 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@108-235-112-153.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:42 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@108-235-112-153.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #joinmarket 13:25 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@108-235-112-153.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:25 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@2602:306:ceb7:990:9562:db57:4831:c55d] has joined #joinmarket 13:30 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@2602:306:ceb7:990:9562:db57:4831:c55d] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:31 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@108-235-112-153.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #joinmarket 13:35 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@108-235-112-153.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:36 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@2602:306:ceb7:990:9562:db57:4831:c55d] has joined #joinmarket 13:41 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@2602:306:ceb7:990:9562:db57:4831:c55d] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:45 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@2602:306:ceb7:990:9562:db57:4831:c55d] has joined #joinmarket 13:56 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@2602:306:ceb7:990:9562:db57:4831:c55d] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 14:17 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@96-68-162-179-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #joinmarket 15:01 < delinquentme> waxwing, belcher Im gonna finish reading this guy: https://github.com/AdamISZ/JMPrivacyAnalysis/blob/master/tumbler_privacy.md 15:02 < delinquentme> I think my biggest question rn is how does the "making a payment w someone else" make magic happen 15:16 < belcher> it happens by multiple parties cooperating to create a coinjoin transaction 15:36 < delinquentme> is that only a feature of a coinjoin or is that any bitcoin tx? 15:36 < delinquentme> and also I get that that creates the magic... but why does it do that? 15:49 < delinquentme> why have mixdepths? And are mixdepths organized in anyway outside of joinmarket? 15:49 < delinquentme> what do addresses inside of a mixdpeth have in common w each other that addys outside of that mixdepth dont? 15:50 < delinquentme> sorry for summonging :D waxwing belcher ^ 15:51 < delinquentme> It seems like wallet addresses are easy / free to make so joinmarket puts that to good use as a tool to run lots of coinjoins internal to itself 15:51 < delinquentme> also whats the diff between internal and external wallets? Internal wallets must be made known to the blockchain otherwise no transactions take place right? 15:52 < delinquentme> or are internal wallets somehow obfuscated? 15:58 < belcher> internal addresses are ones which joinmarket uses to send to itself 15:58 < belcher> external addresses are used by the user to send money to a joinmarket wallet 15:59 < belcher> mixdepths exist because a coinjoin could be trivially unmixed if a change output and a coinjoin output were both re-used as inputs in another later coinjoin 15:59 < belcher> mixdepths are to keep the change and coinjoin outputs separate, change outputs go to the same mixdepth, coinjoin outputs usually go to mixdepth+1 16:03 -!- zxccxz [5db781f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.183.129.246] has joined #joinmarket 16:06 < delinquentme> belcher, "in another later coinjoin" .. do you mean a coinjoin within that tumbler run? 16:07 < belcher> yes, or within that yieldgenerator 16:12 < delinquentme> oh and today is supposed to be the really active market day right? 16:13 < delinquentme> so If I wanted to do a tumbler or a coinjoin then today would be the day right? 16:15 < belcher> why today? 16:15 < belcher> any day would work 16:16 < delinquentme> idk someone said sundays are high traffic 16:16 < delinquentme> maybs wax? 16:33 < delinquentme> ok so im back on this: 16:33 < delinquentme> "It is based on the following idea: “When you want to make a payment, find someone else who also wants to make a payment and make a joint payment together.”.[1] When making a joint payment, there is no way to relate input and outputs in one bitcoin transaction and thus the exact direction of money movement remains unknown to third parties." 16:34 < delinquentme> as I dont understand what about "how transactions are handeld on the blockchain" that create the: 16:34 < delinquentme> "direction of money movement remains unknown to third parties." 16:37 < delinquentme> I believe part of it is: "that once the transactions are signed, then they become a single transaction" 16:41 < belcher> delinquentme maybe look at some real coinjoins https://blockchain.info/tx/3b97544488cac0271a80b20822597342648d19ed02ac25041bd8d35e624d8e6b 16:47 < delinquentme> "It is normal for a transaction to spend many inputs in order to get enough value to pay its intended payment" 16:48 < delinquentme> "to spend many inputs" ... so basically inputs arent wallet addresses. 16:49 < delinquentme> so then this is something similar ... as to make a transaction happen, I'd be spending a number of past inputs ( say if Im emptying out my wallet ) ... then there would be a multitude of inputs? ... I believe this is correct. 17:04 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.35] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:27 < delinquentme> belcher, when I make a local joinmarket wallet... when does that addy become incorporated into the blockchain? Upon creation? Or when it recieves its first transaction? 17:28 < belcher> sorry im not able to answer you, those questions go beyond joinmarket to about how bitcoin itself works, id say read more about how bitcoin transactions work 17:31 < delinquentme> yeah ppl in #blockchain seem so confident until they arent. thanks though. 19:05 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@96-68-162-179-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:00 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@2602:306:ceb7:990:5013:8fea:6360:15ed] has joined #joinmarket 21:15 < waxwing> delinquentme, it's not difficult for him to answer the Q :) but he's right that it's not really a joinmarket question, it's a bitcoin question. such questions are totally appropriate for #bitcoin itself (but yes it's a good idea to read up on the mechanics of bitcoin in one of many articles, vids etc.) 21:16 < delinquentme> Right i cant expect you guys to educate me 21:16 < delinquentme> I was just asking as the signal/noise is much higher here :P 21:18 < waxwing> true that ... ;) 21:43 < waxwing> personally i like the bitcoin developer guide is good. the part that explains from first principles (ish) starts here I think: https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide#block-chain 21:43 < waxwing> delinquentme, ^ 21:44 < delinquentme> I think reading through some of the docs on the https://github.com/AdamISZ/JMPrivacyAnalysis/blob/master/tumbler_privacy.md taught me a bit 21:46 < delinquentme> 1) addresses are cheap 21:46 < delinquentme> 2) Multiple transactions once signed effectively collapse into a single transaction 21:46 < delinquentme> so that creates initial obfuscation 21:48 < delinquentme> but then upon more iterations ... further decomposition of ins and outs happen 21:49 < delinquentme> Oh and 3) "SO if we see multiple scriptpubkeys being consumed in a transaction ... then wed assume a single party owns all of those." 21:49 < delinquentme> and therefore the greater number of input scriptpubkeys being consumed within a transaction further obfuscation. 21:54 < waxwing> the whitepaper (bitcoin.pdf) has a line something like "multiple inputs implies those inputs all belong to the same owner". this statement is unambiguously false, as proved by coinjoin. 21:55 < waxwing> but i do think you just investigate the mechanics of transactions more before analysing coinjoin. 21:57 < delinquentme> cool 22:44 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:53 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@2602:306:ceb7:990:5013:8fea:6360:15ed] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:23 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has joined #joinmarket 23:54 -!- delinquentme [~delinquen@2602:306:ceb7:990:5013:8fea:6360:15ed] has joined #joinmarket