--- Day changed Fri Oct 06 2017 00:00 -!- coins123_ [~coins123@ip-244-225.sn1.clouditalia.com] has joined #joinmarket 00:03 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:27 -!- takamatsu [~takamatsu@unaffiliated/takamatsu] has joined #joinmarket 01:31 -!- timothy [~tredaelli@redhat/timothy] has joined #joinmarket 01:31 < timothy> hi, is there any way to send all bitcoins in an address to another one without doing coinjoin? 01:31 < timothy> I cannot sweep the address since it's a segwit address 01:43 -!- Aylin [~Aylin@ns334669.ip-5-196-64.eu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:18 < adlai> timothy: supplying the `-N0` option to sendpayment.py, with zero as the amount, lets you sweep - but an entire mixdepth 02:18 < adlai> i'm not sure what you mean about being unable to sweep the address due to segwit... JM sweeping works on both kinds 02:20 < timothy> Exception: Not enough funds 02:21 < timothy> but I have 0.14 BTC 02:23 < timothy> adlai: I tried to sweep the joinmarket private key in electrum :P 02:24 < adlai> timothy: are you specifying the right mixdepth? sendpayment.py defaults to sending from mixdepth 0 02:24 < timothy> yes, if you specify wrong mixdepth it returns a different error 02:24 < timothy> 2017-10-06 11:20:09,851 [MainThread ] [ERROR] There are no utxos in mixdepth: 0, quitting. 02:24 < timothy> like that 02:34 < adlai> timothy: hmm. can you make a transaction by specifying the amount? (you can abort before it gets broadcast on the network) 02:35 * adlai searches for the option that lets you confirm... 02:35 < adlai> looks like i imagined that. 02:37 < timothy> nevermind, my fault :/ 02:37 < timothy> wrong command line option 02:37 < timothy> thank you 03:12 < adlai> timothy: s'all good, man 03:20 < waxwing> boom, loaded one of my JM segwit wallets into trezor with recovery seed :) 03:24 < waxwing> anyone got a ledger that can investigate whether it works for that too? 03:26 < waxwing> it shows the accounts used in the past and shows history ... although i'm not sure how it's handling the coinjoin-y nature of the transactions it's showing in the history. 03:26 < waxwing> privacy implications are left as an exercise to the reader ... 03:27 < waxwing> (but then it's mostly about getting coins out i guess, anyway it's great that it works) 03:27 -!- coins123_ [~coins123@ip-244-225.sn1.clouditalia.com] has quit [] 03:31 -!- coins123 [~coins123@ip-244-225.sn1.clouditalia.com] has joined #joinmarket 03:31 -!- coins123 [~coins123@ip-244-225.sn1.clouditalia.com] has quit [Changing host] 03:31 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has joined #joinmarket 03:44 < adlai> ugh: https://tradeblock.com/bitcoin/tx/af7fd65c73a6f051e9a1a475a8ccc7d5bf4fc5d4af4680e93d1b1a62e8e804d2 03:45 < waxwing> yep there's been tons of them actually 03:45 < adlai> this is the kind of footgunning that should at the very least require a --yes-i-really-want-to-undermine-my-privacy flag 03:45 < waxwing> interestingly belcher has argued it isn't as big of a deal as it seems, he has a point, but i argued that it's strictly worse, so i'm more on your side. 03:45 < waxwing> TIL "podle" means "according to" in Czech :) 03:46 < waxwing> shoulda gone with "poodle" after all 03:47 < waxwing> adlai, i wouldn't object to a PR for that. and of course this is why i'm not gung-ho about getting people to move over to new *pit. 03:47 < waxwing> and then other people say "you dumbass, it's bech32 or bust" .. it's all a bit of a shitshow really :) 03:57 < adlai> waxwing: somehow i suspect that the person making that transaction might not have realized either side of the argument 03:57 < adlai> unless they happen to be lurking here, and have noticed this discussion... 03:58 < waxwing> i think i put it in the initial release announcement; but as i say, i agree; but it's interesting to hear belcher 's thoughts on it. 03:59 * waxwing wanders vaguely in direction of conference 04:00 < adlai> hcpp? 04:34 < waxwing> yup 04:39 -!- takamatsu [~takamatsu@unaffiliated/takamatsu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:39 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:40 -!- takamatsu [~takamatsu@unaffiliated/takamatsu] has joined #joinmarket 04:40 < adlai> in other news: cjhunt now distinguishes SW and PKH coinjoins: http://adlai.uncommon-lisp.org:5000/block?id=488528 04:40 < adlai> also it now parses raw blocks, rather than calling getrawtransaction a zillion times 04:41 < adlai> so now it only takes a couple seconds to scan each block 04:42 < adlai> hmm, sw tx detection is missing one in 488066 04:43 < adlai> oh this is another useless join 04:47 < waxwing> adlai, ok great; hadn't checked that for a while 04:48 -!- takamatsu_ [~takamatsu@unaffiliated/takamatsu] has joined #joinmarket 04:48 * adlai hadn't bothered restarting it recently, since calling getrawtransaction ~200 times per minute was a ridiculous resource hog 04:48 -!- takamatsu [~takamatsu@unaffiliated/takamatsu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:49 < waxwing> snazzy, i like it 04:49 < waxwing> ICO time 04:50 < waxwing> adlai, oh the "it" link gives: SyntaxError: JSON.parse: expected ',' or ']' after array element at line 7 column 9 of the JSON data 04:50 < adlai> hmmm. 04:50 < adlai> waxwing: check again? it doesn't for me... 04:51 < waxwing> yes, repeatable, this is firefox, which has its own json presentation layer, could well be to do with that 04:51 < waxwing> the raw data is there fine 04:52 < adlai> oh, my json pprinter is missing commas in the list display 04:52 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #joinmarket 04:59 < adlai> waxwing: thank you for catching that, should be fixed now: http://adlai.uncommon-lisp.org:5000/block?id=488066 05:14 < belcher> ahaha adlai waxwing thats a perfect example 05:15 < belcher> if you think privacy is being ruined, tell me who / which address paid to that p2pkh address 05:15 < belcher> if you click on all the inputs you'll see ALL of them are also coinjoin outputs 05:15 * adlai does have subset sum solving code in cjhunt, just not hooked up to process each incoming tx, yet... 05:15 < waxwing> belcher, yes i understood your argument from before; but it's clear that it's strictly worse, in the general case. 05:16 < waxwing> your argument is just that in a tumbler run it doesn't make much difference, sure, but that's not the same thing as no privacy loss at all. 05:17 < waxwing> sitting here listening to paige peterson (who previously spent ages pumping maidsafe) pump zcash as the right privacy tech and bitcoin dev as shitty and slpw. great! (packed house btw) 05:17 < belcher> could you walk out? idk up to you 05:17 < waxwing> lol i would, but the other talks look like a load of rubbish:) 05:17 < waxwing> plus this chair is comfy 05:17 < belcher> hehe, so the prague thing is right now 05:18 < belcher> wonder if theres a stream anywhere 05:18 < adlai> if you have a comfy chair, and reasonable wifi, i'm not sure the warm fuzzies of being rude to a shitcoin pumper are sufficient to give up the comforts 05:18 < waxwing> i saw somewhere that the WCN is "covering" it but i have my doubts they're quite up to standards of scaling/breaking bitcoin guys :) 05:18 < waxwing> it is being filmed of course 05:19 < waxwing> heh she's "shouting out to monero" to try to heal the divide :) 05:28 < waxwing> im kind of annoyed if no one gives a shit about trezor recovery; people were constantly asking for recoverability but then when it's given nobody seems to care. 05:30 < adlai> belcher: taker swept from 1st input to last output. maker groupings: 05:30 < adlai> (42888813 76290000 62050000) + 12148 -> 38820967 05:30 < adlai> (184703800) + 10482 -> 42294288 05:30 < adlai> (230400051) + 8045 -> 87988102 05:30 < adlai> (94860000 5010003 42849320) + 10368 -> 309697 05:30 < adlai> (336931797) + 20366 -> 194532169 05:31 < belcher> ok, and where did that input come from? 05:32 < belcher> it comes from another coinjoin of its own 05:32 < belcher> and it keeps going back that way 05:33 < adlai> belcher: 7d07d3779abc47a2a2e2a2ecf37387966f552bd4c1889e71d6a9dce4b4529d7a:6 05:33 < adlai> you can't argue with that answer! 05:33 < belcher> interestingly if the exchange or whatever used p2sh addresses instead, you could still see it was special because the next tx wouldnt be a coinjoin 05:35 < belcher> so to reiterate: we already know that single coinjoins arent private, mixing a p2pkh address in doesnt change that much; the above coinjoin wasnt just a single coinjoin so its privacy is perfectly strong 05:35 < adlai> ahaha my shitty solver fails on that tx 05:36 < adlai> https://github.com/adlai/cjhunt/blob/master/src/hunt.lisp#L100 << truer scuses were never scused! 05:37 < waxwing> belcher, do you not agree that it, in some cases, removes the effect of the final join in the run? because it makes the in-cjout linkage for the last step *MORE* obvious, of course in many (even most) cases that is fairly obvious anyway 05:37 < belcher> yes its slightly more obvious, but to a careful attacker who simply clicks on every output address to see which doesnt lead to a coinjoin, it doesnt change anything at all 05:37 < waxwing> your argument is more like 'the failure of one join to do much does not make tumbler fail', clearly, but it's another kind of watermarking, it's to me clearly worse in general. 05:38 < belcher> from my point of view mixing a p2pkh address in there saves you clicking, thats all 05:38 < adlai> it's really a question of attacker resources 05:38 < waxwing> belcher, yeah but that doesn't really work reliably, if plenty of makers send out with coinjoins from time to time (as i do, i'm hoping others too) 05:39 < belcher> would be interesting to measure how many but i suspect the number isnt that large, because tumbler.py has all the documentation and advice for it 05:39 < belcher> either way id be very against adding a footgun warning to this because its far from a footgun 05:41 < belcher> also btw a maker using patientsendpayment could also have been sending to a p2pkh address 05:43 < belcher> idk maybe think adversarially, which situation would the p2pkh address lead to a losing your privacy? only in situations where you already would have lost your privacy (doing only a single coinjoin) 05:43 < adlai> ugh, meanwhile my raw parser seems to sometimes get the byte order backwards for prevout txids... emphasis on ~some~times >_< 05:44 < waxwing> belcher, i just see it as another of several potential markers 05:44 < waxwing> what bothers me about it is makers are coded to *never* do that so it's unambiguous 05:44 < waxwing> all the other markers can be ambiguous, because a maker could have done the same with that cjout (forward flow) 05:45 < waxwing> to me that's a crucial difference, because a lot of stuff is "probably that happened but it's somewhat deniable because this other thing *sometimes* happens" 05:45 < belcher> makers can still do that using patientsendpayment 05:45 < belcher> yieldgenereators never do, you're right 05:45 < waxwing> right patientsendpayment would be a huge boon generally 05:46 < waxwing> unfortunately it doesn't even exist on segwit pit yet :) 05:46 < belcher> it doesnt work on jm-clientserver? 05:47 < waxwing> belcher, there's an open issue to add it back 05:47 < belcher> ok 05:47 < belcher> btw, do you think it could be valuable to have a kind of patient-tumbler.py where for a certain amount of time its a maker and after a timeout it becomes a taker 05:47 < waxwing> it isn't a copy-paste, although i've only thought about it cursorily, there's some brief notes 05:48 < waxwing> yes patient tumbler, also related, i think with schedules, you can kind of hybridise sendpayment/tumbler 05:48 < waxwing> i don't think i opened an issue but it's on the TODO.md that fold those together 05:49 < waxwing> and then make a super-script that does absolutely everything like patient-tumbler :) 05:49 < belcher> yeah or just add it as an option to tumbler, idk i havent looked in detail at the code yet 05:50 < waxwing> kind of funny doing coinjoins while listening to zcash pump. also krawisz was sitting right in front of me too :) 05:50 < belcher> who is krawisz again? (im bad with names) 05:58 < adlai> belcher: probably https://twitter.com/danielkrawisz?lang=en 05:58 < belcher> oh cool yes 06:04 < adlai> aha. found my heisenbug; and subsequently found that the shitty solver gives a result for every single cj in 488066 06:06 < adlai> ... but at least one of them doesn't make sense. 06:13 -!- takamatsu_ is now known as takamatsu 06:15 < adlai> OK! cjhunt has no more ~known~ bugs :D 06:16 * adlai looks forwards to once again seeing periodic skiddy attempts at the server, now that he's serving http again 06:53 * adlai added a feature to cjhunt! check it out... 06:56 < waxwing> i might be imagining it but i think someone's come up with a new usage pattern 06:56 < adlai> which is? 06:57 < waxwing> more at 11 06:57 < waxwing> in some base :) 07:10 -!- takamatsu_ [~takamatsu@unaffiliated/takamatsu] has joined #joinmarket 07:11 -!- takamatsu [~takamatsu@unaffiliated/takamatsu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:14 -!- Paul8 [~Paul@ns334669.ip-5-196-64.eu] has joined #joinmarket 07:21 -!- Paul8 [~Paul@ns334669.ip-5-196-64.eu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:40 -!- quitobro [~quitobro@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/quitobro] has joined #joinmarket 08:55 -!- zxccxz [5db781f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.183.129.246] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:09 -!- timothy [~tredaelli@redhat/timothy] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 09:42 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has quit [] 09:53 -!- takamatsu_ [~takamatsu@unaffiliated/takamatsu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:53 -!- takamatsu_ [~takamatsu@unaffiliated/takamatsu] has joined #joinmarket 10:06 -!- zxccxz [5db781f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.183.129.246] has joined #joinmarket 11:06 -!- quitobro_ [~quitobro@pool-108-41-0-186.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #joinmarket 11:09 -!- quitobro [~quitobro@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/quitobro] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:09 -!- quitobro_ is now known as quitobro 12:09 -!- zxccxz [5db781f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.183.129.246] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:15 -!- wxxs [~chatzilla@185.117.118.225] has joined #joinmarket 12:18 -!- quitobro [~quitobro@pool-108-41-0-186.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: quitobro] 12:23 -!- moff [5b566e51@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.86.110.81] has joined #joinmarket 12:24 < moff> hey waxwing are you there 12:28 < moff> I coinjoined and like always it failed but I now ave an internal address showing some bitcoins available on it but when I check on blockchain.info, the address is empty 13:36 -!- dserrano5 [~9dsd9s9da@dserrano5.es] has joined #joinmarket 14:16 -!- quitobro [~quitobro@cpe-67-245-3-88.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #joinmarket 14:20 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:24 -!- quitobro [~quitobro@cpe-67-245-3-88.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: quitobro] 14:26 -!- quitobro [~quitobro@cpe-67-245-3-88.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #joinmarket 14:26 -!- quitobro [~quitobro@cpe-67-245-3-88.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:35 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #joinmarket 14:40 -!- quitobro [~quitobro@cpe-67-245-3-88.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #joinmarket 14:42 -!- coins123 [~coins123@2.43.5.155] has joined #joinmarket 14:42 -!- coins123 [~coins123@2.43.5.155] has quit [Changing host] 14:42 -!- coins123 [~coins123@unaffiliated/coins123] has joined #joinmarket 14:47 -!- quitobro [~quitobro@cpe-67-245-3-88.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: quitobro] 14:52 -!- zxccxz [5db781f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.183.129.246] has joined #joinmarket 15:11 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:31 -!- quitobro [~quitobro@pool-108-41-0-186.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #joinmarket 16:57 -!- takamatsu_ [~takamatsu@unaffiliated/takamatsu] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:03 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:25 -!- Giszmo [~leo@ip-197-236-219-201.nextelmovil.cl] has joined #joinmarket 17:38 -!- quitobro [~quitobro@pool-108-41-0-186.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: quitobro] 17:57 -!- moff [5b566e51@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.86.110.81] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:36 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #joinmarket 20:01 -!- wxxs [~chatzilla@185.117.118.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:02 -!- Giszmo [~leo@ip-197-236-219-201.nextelmovil.cl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:24 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #joinmarket