--- Day changed Tue Oct 10 2017
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04:44 < frank__> Hello, just to know the tx_fees is a number of blocks, right ?
05:32 < waxwing> frank__, it is a number of blocks if < 144, otherwise it's a number of satoshis per kB (e.g. 10000 would be 10 satoshis per byte)
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06:10 < frank__> waxwing Can you please explain me again the 'x' option in the tumbler
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06:27 < waxwing> frank__, does the example given in `python tumbler.py --help` not .. help? :)
06:29 < waxwing> " -x MAXCJFEE, --maxcjfee=MAXCJFEE maximum coinjoin fee and bitcoin value the tumbler is willing to pay to a single market maker. Both values
06:29 < waxwing>                         need to be exceeded, so if the fee is 30% but only 500satoshi is paid the tx will go ahead. default=0.01,10000 (1%, 10000satoshi)"
06:30 < frank__> if the cj fee is fixed by the makers and -x is the max cj fee, why does this need to be exceeded ?
06:30 < frank__> shouldn't it be the opposite ?
06:35 < waxwing> frank__, if the limit is exceeded by any one counterparty, you just won't accept their offer
06:35 < waxwing> "both need to be exceeded (in order to *reject* their offer, is what's implied there)
06:37 < waxwing> so in that example it's not rejected, because 500 satoshis is smaller than the absolute limit (in that case, that limit is 10000). So even though 30% violates the relative limit, 500 sats doesn't violate the absolute limit, so it's accepted.
06:37 < frank__> Okay that's what I thought
06:38 < frank__> And the 1% I suppose it's relative to all the money in my wallet
06:38 < waxwing> no, it's relative to the amount of the coinjoin
06:39 < waxwing> that's what the relative figures mean, like when you see 'relfee' it means as a percentage of the amount of that particular coinjoin transaction. specifically the amount in the equal-sized outputs.
06:39 < frank__> Ok     
06:41 < frank__> So for my coinjoin I set tx_fees to  10. I let max cj fee to the default value. Will I lose a lot or not?
06:44 < waxwing> it depends on what your Core node is giving for `estimatefee 10`, it depends on the size of the coinjoin transaction (especially number of inputs), it depends on whether you're going to do multiple txs and how many, and it depends whether the amounts of your coinjoins are small enough that the coinjoinfee is a large-ish fraction. finally it also depends on whether the coinjoin fees available in the market are low (usually they are).
06:45 < waxwing> reminds me, PRs to replace 'estimatefee' with 'estimatesmartfee' welcome :)
06:50 < frank__> I'm not expert in btc, but I thing you should explain all of this somewhere :) I can't even imagine a basic user trying to do this 
06:51 < frank__> Everything depends on too many factors
06:52 < waxwing> did you read this? https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket/wiki/Step-by-step-running-the-tumbler#before-going-further-a-few-words-on-fees
06:53 < waxwing> i did suggest you read it two or three times before, but i didn't bother to give the direct link.
06:55 < frank__> I think I already read the github doc three times
06:56 < frank__> What I don't really know is the internal process of coinjoin
06:57 < waxwing> ok. maybe someone else can help out on that.
06:58 < frank__> Yes I'll try to get more informations
06:58 < frank__> Why did I get the Not enough funds error?
07:00 < frank__> The script is still working
07:03 < frank__> [INFO ]  total estimated amount spent = 258168 2017-10-10 15:57:29,755 [Thread-15   ] [WARNI]  Failed to select total amount + twice txfee fromwallet; trying to select just total amount.
07:04 < waxwing> amounts are too small, as i was saying yesterday (iirc)
07:05 < frank__> 0.02 is the max I can have
07:05 < waxwing> JM needs some breathing room to select enough for the btc fees which it cannot *exactly* predict in advance (unlike for a normal btc transaction)
07:06 < waxwing> in theory it should be possible to do amounts like 0.0025 as you mention above, but it's going to be flaky for the reason i just mentioned
07:06 < frank__> So there's nothing I can do ? I just have to give up
07:07 < waxwing> you can set tx_fees = 5000 for example
07:07 < frank__> it's not working because of that ?
07:07 < waxwing> this will correspond to 5 sat/byte, so likely total txfee may be something like 5000 satoshis (say 3000-10000), but there's a good chance you'll have to wait quite a long time for a confirmation.
07:08 < waxwing> i can't say for sure, but it's likely given that error message.
07:09 < frank__> Better to wait than failing again and again
07:09 < frank__> There is only one "big" bitcoin transaction at the end ?
07:10 < frank__> with multiple input and multiple output, right?
07:12 < waxwing> that's what happens for a single coinjoin, yes
07:14 < frank__> Note that my tumble worked perfectly fine
07:14 < frank__> I only lost 0.002 btc
07:16 < frank__> Let's recap : One coinjoin is one official bitcoin transaction and a tumble is multiple coinjoins ?
07:17 < waxwing> yes that's right. although the use of the term 'tumble' here is specific to joinmarket's "tumbler algorithm", "tumble" is used in other places in other ways.
07:18 < frank__> Okay I get it thanks for the clarification
07:18 < frank__> And what is "Max coinjoin number" parameter ?
07:18 < waxwing> maximum number of transactions per mixdepth iirc
07:19 < waxwing> bullet points here for algo https://github.com/AdamISZ/JMPrivacyAnalysis/blob/master/tumbler_privacy.md#tumbler-algorithm
07:20 < waxwing> similar, bit more detailed, in somewhat neglected docs repo: https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/JoinMarket-Docs/blob/master/High-level-design.md#the-tumbler-script
07:20 < waxwing> although again i think most of this was on the wiki page.
07:20 < waxwing> so what exactly "worked perfectly fine" frank__ ?
07:21 < frank__> All of my addresses coinjoined and are now internal
07:25 < belcher> if they are internal doesnt that mean the tumble isnt finished?
07:25 < belcher> at the end it will send the bitcoins to the addresses you specified
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08:33 < timothy> hi, are internal addresses used using sendpayment.py?
08:34 < timothy> I mean as source
08:34 < belcher> yes     
08:35 < belcher> internal address just means joinmarket sent coins there, as a change address for example
08:35 < timothy> so this is not my problem? "ERROR not enough liquidity in the orderbook"
08:35 < belcher> external addresses are used to send coins from somewhere else, they could be called "receive addresses"
08:35 < belcher> yes thats unrelated
08:35 < belcher> maybe the amount you're trying to send is too high or too low?
08:36 < timothy> ~ 1 BTC
08:36 < belcher> hmm, weird
08:36 < belcher> if you run ob-watcher.py you can see the state of the orderbook
08:38 < belcher> there should be liquidity for 1 btc
08:53 < waxwing> i think the chans are up; things look to be behaving normally this end. although i'm on onions here.
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11:08 < quitobro> hey guys. when putting coins into a JM wallet to fund a tumbler/YG bot, should the coins be split among the mixdepths or all put in 1 mixdepth? I feel like this is answered in the wiki somewhere, sorry if so
11:08 < arubi> send them all to different addresses on mixdepth 0
11:08 < arubi> well, send how many outputs you intended to spend :)
11:09 < quitobro> arubi: thanks. wdym intended to spend? like if i’m tumbling as part of, say, 3 spends *from* my JM wallet, then send them as 3 txs into JM wallet?
11:10 < arubi> right, I think these are better as individual transactions and not just one paying to the addresses on the jm wallet at once
11:11 < arubi> but like you say it's probably well covered in the wiki
11:12 < quitobro> arubi: still not really following the distinction you’re trying to make here…
11:13 < arubi> say I have two inputs on my core wallet that I know are probably linked, maybe two sends to two addresses but from the same exchange or pool, then I'd consolidate them and send as a 2->1 where the output is a single address from depth 0 in my jm wallet
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11:16 < arubi> not sure if the line got through
11:16 < arubi> /shakes fist at freenode onion
11:16 < arubi> "say I have two ... jm wallet", did that post?
11:22 < waxwing> arubi, yes
11:22 < arubi> ah thanks
11:25 < quitobro> yep, cheers
11:33 < belcher> wait freenode's onion works now? since when
11:33 < arubi> a very long time
11:33 < belcher> it didnt work last i checked (like 2 years ago lol)
11:33 < arubi> it's kinda flaky lately... a few days ago there were hours of downtime, but that's after a while of it just being laggy and not really disconnecting
11:39 < arubi> just got a fuzzy feeling thinking about blockstream uplinking coinjoins to space :)
11:40 < arubi> joinmarket rather, the transactions are already in space
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11:49 < qwqqqqq> hey     
11:49 < qwqqqqq> how can do %100 anonymous payment sent to 1 address to another 1
11:50 < qwqqqqq> anyone ?
11:50 < quitobro> qwqqqqq: read the instructions in the joinmarket repo
11:51 < qwqqqqq> thx     
11:51 < quitobro> arubi: how is the maker’s “minimum size/btc” calculated as displayed in the order book?
11:52 < quitobro> qwqqqqq: https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket
11:53 < qwqqqqq> its too complicate for me
11:53 < qwqqqqq> any wallet gui program exists ?
11:53 < quitobro> qwqqqqq: if ur on android, samourai wallet has a pretty good privacy feature
11:54 < qwqqqqq> ios ?
11:54 < qwqqqqq> :(     
11:54 < arubi> quitobro, I don't know actually
11:54 < qwqqqqq> hmm thx
11:54 < arubi> oh you mean the amounts?
11:55 < quitobro> arubi: yea
11:55 < quitobro> what goes into that? the fee rate the maker sets, but what else?
11:56 < arubi> I think it's just how much is their lowest input that they can coinjoin
11:56 < quitobro> arubi: yea it’s the smallest size a maker will make with, right? i’m asking what vars influence how that is calculated as it seems to be derived and not explicitly set somewhere
11:56 < arubi> it's the actual amount in their minimum amount utxu
11:56 < arubi> utxo*
11:57 < quitobro> it’s the size of the smallest UTXO?
11:57 < waxwing> quitobro, the minimum size depends on the fees and the txfee contribution, it's calculated to ensure that the net income is always > 0
11:57 < quitobro> it seems like by changing the maker’s fee it changes the minimum size…
11:58 < quitobro> oh ok. so if you have a higher fixed txfee that you require, then it would calculate a higher minimum size, kinda like that?
11:58 < arubi> oh so sizes?  I was talking about actual amounts
11:58 < waxwing> but there is also a minsize that you can set explicitly
11:58 < arubi> sorry, not versed on ob-watcher :)
11:58 < quitobro> yea i see the minsize in the yg.py file
11:58 < quitobro> yg-basic.py*
11:59 < quitobro> “max_minsize” in that. but then the order book displays “minimum size/btc” which is a totally different value
11:59 < waxwing> yes it changes based on this line: https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/blob/master/jmclient/jmclient/yieldgenerator.py#L94
11:59 < waxwing> (basically the same in the other repo)
12:00 < waxwing> and some versions of yg have a randomizing feature on the numbers too
12:00 < quitobro> waxwing: nice ty! so it’s the larger of the set (minsize as configured in yg.py, or 1.5 * the txfee / cjfee_r)
12:01 < waxwing> if you work out the algebra you'll see where the 1.5 comes from iirc
13:50 < quitobro> waxwing: got the summary working via WalletView :)
13:50 < quitobro> kinda messy but i can clean it up, would like to hear your thoughts on consolidating the logic changes (the diff in the PR)
13:50 < waxwing> thanks, will do
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