--- Day changed Wed Dec 20 2017
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04:16 < waxwing> KD6, you can change the console_log_level to DEBUG for more console output
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14:04 < belcher> waxwing i re-read your SNICKER proposal, more thoroughly this time, its very cool :)
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14:08 < belcher> ive linked this before but fidelity bonds could be another method like hashcash to rate-limit any abusing of the anonymous repository https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fidelity_bonds#Temporary_Fidelity_Bond
14:09 < belcher> send bitcoins to a time-locked address and reveal that UTXO and locktime, it has a UX issue that the user needs another utxo separate from the one they're coinjoining, but in other ways its a good rate-limiter
14:16 < belcher> also i think its possible to extend it to >2 parties, have alice find two bobs, she encrypts the unsigned tx with bob1's key, bob1 downloads it and signs it and encrypts with bob2's pubkey and uploads, bob2 downloads it and signs it and broadcasts it
14:16 < belcher> all 3 parties know the mapping so its not much of an improvement though
14:19 < belcher> for any lurkers im talking about this https://joinmarket.me/blog/blog/snicker/
14:32 < waxwing> yes i mused about that a bit (i guess there are variants). certainly p2ch / fidelity bond type stuff feels more likely to be sensible than a pure hashcash type thing.
14:32 < waxwing> but i don't know really what to think of it all. my sense is maybe, on the "how can you get a pubkey" thing, i overcomplicated it, and it might be better to just go with a "this is likely the change" heuristic
14:34 < waxwing> when i mentioned it to gmaxwell he suggested another way of making it less complicated, namely that the "receiver" could actually just anonymously propose the pubkey. not sure how i feel about that either. was focused on making it a one way process.
14:36 < belcher> with the recent price of block space im not sure what the future is of coinjoin-based privacy, it seems off-chain is much cheaper
14:37 < belcher> i wonder if coinjoin might become only for schnorr with privacy done by coinswap or LN
14:37 < belcher> then you only need to make sure that the off-chain refund transaction signing works together with the schnorr coinjoin creating
14:38 < belcher> this is far future though, the price of block space is only high now because of the price volatility which will cool down eventually
14:39 < waxwing> yeah it's the bitcoin mania + the refusal to adopt segwit (many companies are effectively spamming the chain by using block weight they don't need to) + bcash hashrate swings too
14:40 < waxwing> people who actually understand CJ at all often end up realizing that yeah it's block-space-expensive, but otoh i still think it'll have a place like you say, schnorr, CT.
14:40 < waxwing> at some point someone should look into CJ lightning channel opening i guess?
14:41 < waxwing> CJ confusion, CS diffusion? :)
14:42 < belcher> the only hard part is getting the refund transaction, sec
14:43 < belcher> have you watched this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lgYYz3y_hY (hour long)
14:44 < belcher> if not doesnt matter, but it describes pretty well how the payment channels will be setup
14:44 < belcher> when you open a channel you ask the other guy for his pubkey and get him to sign a refund transaction
14:45 < belcher> with CJ schnorr + LN i imagine you get the pubkey, use it to create the 2of2 multisig payment channel address, created the coinjoin, ask the LN node to sign the refund transaction, sign the CJ yourself and broadcast
14:45 < belcher> so it should work but people coding the schnorr CJ will have to be mindful so its easy to connect together with LN
14:51 < waxwing> yes i believe i did watch (rather, listen) to that. Tadge does well. slightly easier to comprehend that laolu too :)
14:51 < belcher> we had a conversation about coinswap and LN in paris, i was saying why do we need coinswap when LN exists, thats actually wrong of me :) since doing that means you cant mix your entire bitcoin balance
14:52 < belcher> also LN works best with small amounts
14:52 < waxwing> i get the talks mixed up though, was that the one where he mentioned about unbalanced channels risks.
14:52 < belcher> yes     
14:53 < belcher> i suppose LN is great for privacy if you're just spending bitcoin on day to day stuff, but if you have a bitcoin UTXO and want to to mix it then coinswap seems the best (or something else thats off-chain and designed with privacy)
14:55 < waxwing> maybe the best is coinswaps that look like LN funding ;)
14:55 < belcher> oh for sure, now that we have segwit
14:55 < belcher> also you could do coinswaps going straight into a payment channel
14:55 < waxwing> might be better if all transactions have basically the same fingerprint (to the horror of people doing really cool stuff with MAST and whatnot)
14:55 < belcher> or with change, coinswap 10btc with 1btc in a channel and 9btc on chain
14:56 < belcher> and when LN exists for fast payments, people should be more accepting of the slowness of coinswap
14:57 < waxwing> i'd like to say "eventually scriptless scripts means there will not really be fingerprinting" but from discussions with Andrew I don't think timelocks have a good solution there. at least yet.
14:57 < belcher> if theres timelocks with scriptless scripts then LN on mimblewimble is possible right?
14:58 < waxwing> right he has the hashlock part (at least, a sketch of it; i think he knows how to do it)
14:58 < waxwing> actually it'd be good to get an update on that timelock issue
14:59 < waxwing> btw belcher is now Dr Belcher :) (to channel)
15:00 < pigeons> congrats
15:00 < waxwing> belcher, oh i missed your point about 2 bobs, yes, i was just thinking that it takes away the simplicity of interaction. but for sure that kinda thing should work.
15:13 < belcher> would schnorr require an extra step of interactivity in coinjoin/joinmarket?
15:13 < belcher> i know its not fully designed yet but we know about how it works with delinearization, you need to make something like Q_total = Q_1 + Q_2 + ... + hash(Q_1,Q_2,...)
15:15 < belcher> mostly thinking out loud but i suppose the taker can obtain everyone's Qs and create Q_total then send it to makers along with the unsigned transaction, and each maker sends back the signature? so its the same amount of steps
15:16 < waxwing> the main reason for the interactivity iirc is that you have to swap nonce points R
15:17 < belcher> oh yeah i missed those
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15:20 < waxwing> oh but if your point is, in coinjoin, it doesn't make it any harder, then i think that's right
15:20 < waxwing> well in a general sense ... i guess that's obvious
15:20 < waxwing> unless of course snicker/non-interactive :)
15:30 < belcher> for joinmarket i imagined it that special kinds of makers announce they have a schnorr output and are happy to be in any coinjoin, takers find their 4 or 5 coinjoin-for-privacy makers and also include in the coinjoin all the schnorr makers at once, that would make the transaction cheaper for everyone even if the output amounts are not the same
15:32 < waxwing> right, i get it
15:34 < belcher> and make sure that the schnorr part can be easily interfaced with LN, for when people want to send their schnorr UTXO to a payment channel
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17:46 < adlai> congratulations to the good doctor!
17:47 < adlai> re: block space, short-term (daily across weeks) JM activity seems to remain "seasonal" regardless of overall fee levels, suggesting that blockspace supply is still above demand
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