--- Day changed Mon Jan 22 2018 02:38 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #joinmarket 04:38 -!- Syble44Gaylord [~Syble44Ga@ns334669.ip-5-196-64.eu] has joined #joinmarket 05:08 -!- Rix [~rix@unaffiliated/rix] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:08 -!- Rix [~rix@bnc.vps.bg] has joined #joinmarket 05:08 -!- Rix [~rix@bnc.vps.bg] has quit [Changing host] 05:08 -!- Rix [~rix@unaffiliated/rix] has joined #joinmarket 06:18 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #joinmarket 07:01 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:05 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #joinmarket 07:07 -!- Xeha [~Xeha@unaffiliated/k1773r] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:11 -!- Xeha [~Xeha@unaffiliated/k1773r] has joined #joinmarket 07:41 -!- pigeons is now known as Guest97833 07:41 -!- Netsplit over, joins: pigeons 07:43 -!- falzoid[m] [falzoidmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-wkvmphapxbayfmkt] has joined #joinmarket 07:45 -!- Pilfers [Pillfersr@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-bjqywirezieenjmm] has joined #joinmarket 07:48 -!- Cory [~Cory@unaffiliated/cory] has joined #joinmarket 07:49 -!- Guest97833 is now known as pigeons 08:01 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 08:20 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #joinmarket 09:03 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:25 -!- zxccxz [5db781cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.183.129.204] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 10:39 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #joinmarket 10:57 -!- belcher_ [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:58 -!- belcher_ [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #joinmarket 11:04 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@77.70.119.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:07 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@77.70.119.51] has joined #joinmarket 11:17 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@77.70.119.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:18 -!- lnostdal [~lnostdal@77.70.119.51] has joined #joinmarket 12:47 -!- bsm117532 [~mcelrath@173-9-124-61-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:01 -!- belcher_ [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:01 -!- belcher_ [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #joinmarket 14:18 -!- zxccxz [5db781cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.93.183.129.204] has joined #joinmarket 15:27 -!- kanzure [~kanzure@unaffiliated/kanzure] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] --- Log closed Mon Jan 22 15:27:19 2018 --- Log opened Mon Jan 22 15:27:28 2018 15:27 -!- kanzure [~kanzure@unaffiliated/kanzure] has joined #joinmarket 15:27 -!- Irssi: #joinmarket: Total of 60 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 59 normal] 15:36 -!- Irssi: Join to #joinmarket was synced in 546 secs 17:10 -!- xcvvcx [53e42f33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.228.47.51] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:41 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:42 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@unaffiliated/stopanddecrypt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:43 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@unaffiliated/stopanddecrypt] has joined #joinmarket 17:43 -!- gmaxwell [~gmaxwell@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has joined #joinmarket 17:43 < gmaxwell> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2018-January/015614.html < if someone working on coinswap stuff wanted to reply to that and point out how it would be useful to them, that would be swell. belcher or waxwing perhaps 17:44 < belcher> i just saw that on #bitcoin, yes very cool :) 17:56 < belcher> gmaxwell do you think its worth delaying MAST rollout to have taproot included too? the mast root would be this S 17:56 < gmaxwell> I don't think MAST as proposed is worthwhile to deploy. 17:57 < gmaxwell> it seems like tech for the sake of tech to me, without really strong applications. 17:58 < gmaxwell> esp since I can't see ordinary payments increasing their signature sizes by 33% in order to provide cover traffic for other users. 18:09 < waxwing> gmaxwell, i'm a little unclear on the advantage. in the non-cooperative case you still have to publish the script (S in your example), right. 18:09 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #joinmarket 18:11 < belcher> you just publish H(C||S) waxwing i believe 18:12 < belcher> oh no, you just publish a signature to P 18:12 < waxwing> yeah the script has to be published and verified on the network in the fallback case (his example a CSV + sig) 18:13 < belcher> oh uncooperative 18:13 < waxwing> but i shouldn't be too emphatic since i have a feeling i've misunderstood a crucial nuance 18:13 < gmaxwell> waxwing: yes, you publish the script when there is no cooperation. 18:13 < belcher> in uncooperative you lose privacy then, like in coinswap 18:13 < belcher> in the cooperative case you just publish the signature to P 18:13 < gmaxwell> waxwing: unclear on the advantage vs? 18:14 < waxwing> well, hmm. let's say we do coinswap as today and if cooperative just pay out to a 2 of 2 18:14 < waxwing> but as you mention in the post it'd compose with some kind of MAST thing, too 18:14 < gmaxwell> vs not having it? If the contract executes in the "everyone agrees" case, then then it looks like an oridnary 1 of 1 payment. 18:14 < waxwing> right but compared with say coinswap using schnorr and in cooperative case, just pays out to 1 of 1 18:15 < gmaxwell> but that requires you to have some 32byte overhead for the untaken branch, which means it's going to obviously not be a 1 of 1 because you're not going to manage to convince 1of1 users to take that overhead. 18:15 < waxwing> this is for a MAST thing right 18:16 < waxwing> i think i followed the reasoning based on that 18:16 < gmaxwell> I don't understand what you're thinking now. 18:17 < waxwing> well ok say you do a coinswap, with schnorr, but without anything else like mast, and without taproot. in cooperative case you just publish to something that looks the same as 1 of 1 right 18:18 < waxwing> "32 byte overhead for untaken branch" doesn't apply there, right? 18:18 < gmaxwell> ah! now I see what you're thinking. 18:19 < gmaxwell> Assuming you address the uncooperative case via OOB constructed refunds. 18:20 < gmaxwell> What it buys you over that is something like 1/4the the protocol round trips. dealing with things like fees on the refunds, and lowering the teardown costs in uncooperative cases. 18:21 < waxwing> ah yes, right, that is a very good point, the "overlay with non-custom tx" step disappears. 18:21 < waxwing> although would have to figure out the exact delta to what i had in that coinswap repo, still general point there is good. 18:21 < waxwing> btw i really like the generalization point you made, let me paste it 18:22 < waxwing> side note, i really like "I believe that _any_ contract with a fixed finite participant set upfront can be and should be represented as an OR between an N-of-N and whatever more complex contract you might want to represent." <-- would be nice to formalize this 18:22 < waxwing> well maybe there's nothing to formalize, but anyway 18:23 < waxwing> guess this construct could apply to lightning in some paths too? 18:24 < gmaxwell> Perhaps. 18:24 < waxwing> guess it is contingent on schnorr/musig to actually get you the anonymity set bump freebie 18:25 < gmaxwell> well I think with taproot, you could have all the boring traffic (as people migrate to aggregatable signatures) using that format. 18:25 < gmaxwell> While I don't think I could sell forcing people into always MASTing with a dummy branch. 18:25 < waxwing> yeah i see what youre thinking. 18:26 < gmaxwell> e.g. make taproot a mandatory part of the aggregate signature support, even people that don't care about privacy will use it for the cheaper txn. 18:27 < waxwing> huh you got me wondering whether we could almost make coinswap non-interactive with this :) 18:32 < gmaxwell> taproot with scriptless scripts could be non-interactive-ish I think. 18:32 < gmaxwell> lemme think 18:32 < waxwing> if anyone's interested in chatting about it in #coinswap let me know :) 18:33 < waxwing> ah yes, all these things get interesting meshed together :) 18:33 < waxwing> i sometimes forget, once we have schnorr, there's not really much point in *not* using scriptless scripts for a coinswap, it's really fundamentally better 19:32 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:53 -!- Relay-Free-Agora [~jmrelayfn@p5DE4A808.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:03 -!- Relay-Free-Agora [~jmrelayfn@p5DE4A54D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #joinmarket 21:20 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:45 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05 -!- xcvvcx [53e42f33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.83.228.47.51] has joined #joinmarket 23:06 -!- StopAndDecrypt_ [~StopAndDe@c-73-248-248-9.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #joinmarket 23:07 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@unaffiliated/stopanddecrypt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]