--- Day changed Mon Apr 30 2018
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05:15 < adlai> player1: the most important question is... are you READY?
05:21 < player1> lol     
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06:30 < quitobro> hi guys - when setting up a local installation using `python setupall.py --develop` where are the egglink files placed?
06:36 < waxwing> quitobro, i believe the link'll be in jmvenv/lib/python2.7/site-packages
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08:21 < waxwing> interesting news perhaps (i link to tweet not forbes because forbes website is horrible): https://twitter.com/AceOfWallStreet/status/990884592625299456
08:21 < waxwing> if you don't want to click twitter either, it says that japanese regulators are asking exchanges to not trade monero, zcash and dash
08:21 < waxwing> (dash heh)
09:25 < waxwing> not a huge deal, but small update on something we discussed way back: do we actually want listunspent_args to default to 1 conf? and not zero? because it does mean a first funding of the wallet doesn't show up until 1 conf.
09:31 < arubi> can the jm wallet easily handle txid change in the case of rbf?  if so there's not much reason not to allow 0 confs as funds.  although one edge case is what if the fund itself is at the end of a very long 0 conf chain, then the next spend from it collides with "max unspent chain length (or even size as cj's are larger)" policy of the node
10:12 < arubi> man paillier is fun :)  I forgot how useful it can be to just sit down with some pen and paper and trace this stuff.  belcher, did you ever write some reference to how it works with elliptic curves?  I'm assuming that '^' becomes scalar multiplication and '*' becomes point addition but wondering if there are any caveats or "surprises" I should be aware of
10:13 < arubi> scalar mult. as in scalar*point that is
10:19 < waxwing> iirc paillier hardness is using number theory, quadratic residuosity in particular (easy to remember the word, not so much what it means ...), so it's more in the rsa family (modulus n=pq stuff). you can't do RSA in EC land because there's no multiplication, so no factoring
10:23 < arubi> ahh, I thought that as long as I choose my p,q from the field then it should work the same but really now I see what you mean because even if it all works, they would still be very small to be secure..  I mean, the multiplication is between two "things" that get raised to some scalar, so in my mind g^b -> b*G
10:25 < arubi> so like, Enc(m1)*Enc(m2) -> (m1*G + n*R) + (m2*G + n*R2) , gives us homomorphic addition
10:25 < arubi> (R == R1 here, sorry)
10:27 < arubi> so now I'm really lost on how it's useful for ecdsa, what are we really doing with it?  seems like I should read moar
10:28 < arubi> or actually it should be Enc(m1) + Enc(m2) if I wanna be consistent with what I say,  the '*' is in rsa land
10:33 < waxwing> basically it's along the lines of, change k^{-1}(z + r*x) to (k_1*k_2)^{-1}(z + (r_1*r_2)(x_1*x_2) where each side has its own subscript
10:34 < waxwing> and then each side of the plus gets encrypted separately. along those lines. i think the lindell paper might be the easiest to trace through. (although i haven't spent too long on it yet myself)
10:36 < arubi> now I'm even more surprised that this works, r_1*r_2 can't possibly be the R_x of k_1*k_2 ?   or if they are, then this is something I've completely been unaware of
10:36 < arubi> or maybe it's not the "usual" checksig being done there at all
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10:40 < player1> have any of you tried to get JM running on a Pi3?
10:43 < arubi> not me.  for a while I tried setting up qemu for it but raspbian didn't cooperate
10:48 < player1> will give me something to do tonight then
10:50 < player1> what’s the difference between the joinmarket io site and the .me one? I see two different orderbooks.
10:52 < arubi> maybe one's on the segwit market and second on legacy?  not sure really.  someone else probably knows
10:56 < waxwing> player1, i run joinmarket.me, it has a button to switch segwit/non-segwit, not sure about joinmarket.io
10:56 < player1> yeah and I noticed https as well
10:56 < waxwing> arubi, re: r1, r2, there's some zkp thing going on. i may not be representing it accurately
10:56 < player1> but the io website has a larger orderbook, is that a different market
10:56 < player1> ?     
10:57 < waxwing> oh i guess they jointly compute an r which is the x-coord of k1*k2 G
10:57 < waxwing> last i heard it was thomas bertani that owned that, but i'm not sure if he kept it updated
10:58 < player1> ok     
10:59 < arubi> that's really cool waxwing.  I'll get back to the pdfs and see if I can make some sense of all this magic :)  but if you figure out some more clues for me please do ping
10:59 < waxwing> well i was going to read it a bit more today but got distracted. are you reading the lindell paper? it has the most discursive/explanatory stuff to see what they're talking about i think.
11:00 < arubi> I didn't get to it yet because I didn't feel I have a grasp on paillier, but I think it's time to look at it now
11:00 < waxwing> just treat it as a black box primitive that gives additive homomorphism, prob enough if you're only trying to understand it.
11:00 < arubi> yep, up until I need to translate it to bc :)
11:03 < waxwing> arubi, oh that's right; you just use diffie hellman primitive. i give you my k1*G, you give me your k2*G, then R = k1*k2*G is the shared point
11:03 < arubi> ah alright, that makes sense then
11:06 < waxwing> yeah but, it looks like (skimming now), the fact that you really need proof that a proper random point is being chosen means you have to do a bit of interactive shenanigans.
11:06 < waxwing> Fig 1 on p10 looks useful
11:09 < waxwing> lol the security proofs are massive, oh dear :)
11:11 < arubi> haha oh yea, now I see.  that's why I always make myself read the thing without scrolling down, so I don't make my head explode before I really have to :)
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13:38 < belcher> player1 run the ob-watcher.py script, thats the best
13:38 < belcher> those websites are just frontends for that script
13:39 < player1> ok cool, thanks
15:15 < belcher> waxwing yes interesting with the japanese exchanges news
15:16 < belcher> now that localbitcoins requires KYC the uk bitcoin trading scene is almost completely blocked off without doxing yourself
15:16 < belcher> the scene has changed a lot since i last traded
15:16 < belcher> well not "a lot"
15:26 < belcher> the number of cash deposit and cash-by-mail sellers has dropped a concerning amount, i expect they moved somewhere else?
15:26 < belcher> and theres barely any cash in person, presumably the bitcoin ATMs killed all that
15:31 < belcher> theres paxful and hodlhodl, but they look to be ghost towns too
15:45 < belcher> you may think bisq will save us, it wont for bank transfer
15:45 < belcher> see https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinUK/comments/3cwl1l/id_requirements_for_uk_exchanges/ct2l62o/
15:46 < belcher> a high volume trader on localbitcoins talking about he has to ask for ID otherwise people will use him to cash out stolen bank accounts; so if the government doesnt force us to dox ourselves, criminals will
15:46 < belcher> the only way i see to avoid that is to use cash
15:51 < belcher> it would be cool to help build up a place to advertise direct cash-in-person trades, since localbitcoins isnt suitable anymore
15:52 < belcher> just a craigslist-for-bitcoin
15:52 < belcher> paxful and hodlhodl i guess, until pressure gets to them too... 
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15:56 < waxwing> oh is paxful working in england?
15:59 < waxwing> belcher, huh, relevant: https://twitter.com/jmcorgan/status/991087864870985729
15:59 < belcher> the site loads if thats what you mean
16:00 < belcher> yeah the net will tighten, still it can be used while its open
16:00 < belcher> cash by mail and cash in person should always work though
16:00 < belcher> i suppose it could be made illegal to send cash by mail
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16:00 < belcher> fwiw the cash deposit thing has been tightening since 2013-14
16:05 < waxwing> right that i can believe
16:08 < player1> nothing to hide, nothing to worry about. Just quit whining and hand over all your credentials, even the ones that aren’t even needed, to everyone you want to transact with
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16:14 < belcher> player1 then wonder why identity fraud is such a problem
16:23 < player1> belcher: people don’ create their own social security numbers, they don’t create their own bank account numbers. So why should people create their own private keys?
16:23 < player1> discuss
16:23 < belcher> because FREEDOM
16:24 < belcher> (and irreversible transactions, micropayments, permissionlessness and all the other mundane but cool stuff from bitcoin)
16:24 < player1> tree of liberty grows from the blood of tyrants and patriots ~Some guy
16:24 < player1> one day we will all have root again!
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16:26 < belcher> on the plus side many of the bitcoin ATMs around here only need a phone number or nothing at all
16:26 < belcher> on the downside they charge 12%
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17:12 < player1> ATMs are a magnet for police in the UK. I heard that people would go there and often they would have to call up the number of the company and ask them to raise the limit from like £10 and it was because the police used to turn up so much.
17:13 < belcher> explain that again?
17:14 < belcher> why were the police called so often
17:16 < player1> apparently they attrack drug dealers
17:16 < player1> I spoke to a few vendors in the south east
17:16 < player1> I found one in central london just off Tot-court road that worked but the rest were either buy only or you had to call up
17:17 < belcher> were the drug dealers using the ATMs to sell bitcoins?
17:18 < player1> I was not able to confirm that, only that I was told so by more than one vendor
17:18 < belcher> how did the police get involved? were they were called because many many bitcoins were being sold or something
17:18 < player1> Oh I spoke to someone in a shop once who had one in there store and he confirmed police would show up from time to time to ask for cctv footage
17:18 < player1> they had to have cameras over the atm
17:19 < player1> I don’t know if the police were just making it up to harass the vendors or not
17:19 < player1> I mean they might have been
17:19 < belcher> i see
17:19 < player1> but I heard that story several time
17:19 < belcher> so what you're saying is its very hard to find a bitcoin ATM that buys bitcoins
17:20 < player1> it’s hard to find one that sells
17:20 < belcher> allows you to sell* ?
17:20 < player1> yeah, normaly that option is disabled
17:20 < belcher> ok     
17:20 < player1> but if I called them up they would enable it
17:20 < player1> there was one in brighton that all it did was let you buy £10
17:21 < player1> then it wouldn’t let anyone else use it for an hour
17:21 < player1> lol     
17:21 < belcher> lol     
17:21 < player1> I found anothe one, I would rather not say where, that did let me sell but only after I called the guy up and even then he only did it to £100, I had to call him again because it kept locking for 1 hour like the other one
17:22 < player1> the whole financial system is imploding
17:22 < player1> the banks don’t trust each other
17:22 < player1> there’s too much procedural requirements
17:23 < player1> the overhead per transaction is insane and the banks have to pass it on to the customer in the form of overdraft fees eversince they had to split up their investment arms from their consumer facing branches
17:23 < player1> government thought they were being clever by segregating the the risky investment side from the consumer side not realising that it was an offset business model
17:24 < player1> banks cannot scale because they cannot afford to provide for people who don’t deposit much
17:24 < player1> nevermind all the overhead with KYC which can be as much as $25 per transaction
17:24 < belcher> but presumably they cant leave those people unbanked, with all this move towards a cashless society
17:24 < player1> I have heard it is $2-$25 per transaction
17:24 < player1> lol     
17:24 < player1> you got it
17:24 < belcher> so the masses are costing them a ton of money hah
17:25 < player1> yeah, but gov tells them they have to provide banking for the poor, see Canadian and UK news today about that
17:25 < belcher> how do you see it evolving with time?
17:25 < player1> because banking is a utility
17:25 < player1> the whole thing’s going to shit this year
17:25 < belcher> maybe just banks being a crappy low-profit overregulated sector ?
17:26 < belcher> maybe it will all be nationalized one day, thats what you do with utilities/infrastructure right?
17:26 < player1> and when I told some of our friends about this over last few months they looked at me like I was crazy
17:26 < belcher> are you really familiar with all this? e.g. do you work in banking
17:26 < belcher> err, actually dont dox yourself
17:27 < player1> even a few years ago when I used to hang out at canary wharf I used to hear horror stories about so many IT staff leaving banking to work for agencies because they were fed up with dealing with the managers and the legacy code. I was told a couple of times that bankers were working from spread sheets and that if people knew how badly this system ran they wouldn’t ever deposit a single dollar again
17:28 < player1> Switzerland’s AG has 45 MLAs right now which is the highest he has ever had to deal with, all for Swiss banks who are terrified of the DOJ
17:28 < player1> Switzerland is now another 51st state of America
17:29 < player1> UK is another 51 state. 
17:29 < player1> 51st State means under the control of the US Government without any of those pesky Bill of Rights
17:29 < player1> Pueta Rico is another
17:29 < belcher> in your view what should the bitcoin community be doing? continuing fungibility/privacy work? but if all entry/exit points as AML'd then all that privacy is pointless
17:30 < player1> basically people will have to choose between: USA or China/Russia - pick one!
17:30 < player1> but you can’t be anywhere else
17:30 < belcher> choose in what way? choose to bank with you mean?
17:30 < player1> THE most important thing all this time was fungibility while everyone was wasting their energy on the stupid “blocksize debacle”
17:31 < player1> that was a huge distraction
17:31 < player1> I mean culturally and legally I think US is going to just control most of the world’s countries
17:31 < player1> and you will have to choose between the US and China/Russia
17:31 < belcher> right but if every entry and exit point is under AML/KYC control even for $10 of trading, wont all the privacy tech be pointless?
17:32 < player1> I think that the banking system is going to implode because they have a red queen problem
17:32 < player1> they just don’t have the resources to cope
17:32 < player1> there’s too much overhead on every transaction
17:33 < player1> not enough qualified compliance officers in the industry and even if there were they wouldn’t be able to pay them 
17:33 < player1> computers cannot make the same kind of discernments that humans can
17:33 < player1> computers cannot apply judgement
17:34 < player1> fun fact: banks hire middle aged Christian women to do a lot of the KYC stuff
17:34 < player1> because HR believes they are the most judgemental
17:35 < player1> I think that once you’re in crypto you should aim to stay in crypto
17:35 < player1> and encourage more people to accept it as payment
17:35 < player1> it’s only volatile relative to an already unstable financial system and that won’t work long term
17:35 < belcher> until that happens, you need to sell to pay ongoing costs though
17:36 < belcher> selling involves touching the financial system (though i guess you could sell for cash and stuff)
17:36 < belcher> (or just accept doxing yourself)
17:36 < player1> much of the reason gov can make their national currencies stable is by using it for taxes, that creates demand which props up the price. Once nice thing is that places like Switzerland (a few cantons at least) are now accepting Bitcoin for Taxes
17:36 < player1> yeah a lot of this is about timing
17:37 < player1> I mean look at the point you made about identity theft and Local Bitcoins. A lot of this is just about different sytems colliding at different points. Identity systems suck. And we probably don’t have time to fix them before banking needs them to improve so what we will get instead is a whole lot more fraud
17:39 < player1> technology drives social change, it’s a lot like metallurgy in a way, in order to get the alloy you want you have to heat up all the base metals and time them just right  so that they mix at the right time and the right temperature. 
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