--- Day changed Fri Aug 03 2018
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03:04 < Talkless> undeath: Hi. I had to move everything from .joinmarket into scripts, because it failed to find "cmtdata/commitments.json"
03:04 < Talkless> so yeah, ~/.joinmarket feature is really appreciated
03:05 < undeath> thanks for the info
03:06 < undeath> it'll be fun to find all the references in the code that accesses/creates some file somewhere
03:10 < Talkless> BTH, what should I do when I get this: "ABORT:Unable to select sufficient coins: Exception('Not enough funds',)" ?
03:11 < Talkless> BTW*
03:37 < Talkless> undeath: what's the practical limits to tunble coins?
03:38 < Talkless> tumble*
03:38 < undeath> sorry, I'm not that familiar with tumbler/sendpayment
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05:12 <@waxwing> Talkless, your question is very general, but you can read the wiki linked in the first paragraph of https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/blob/master/docs/tumblerguide.md for general guidance.
05:14 <@waxwing> Lightsword, i'm afraid i was only targetting python3 while i was doing that. i suspect the whole thing may need to be done differently.
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05:52 < Talkless> Uhg, JM is hard.. Now I get this:
05:52 < Talkless>  Utxos that passed age and size limits, but have been used too many times
05:52 < Talkless> Because I've got some osrt of timeouts due to "Makers who didnt respond: "
05:55 < Talkless> How should I handle this "Utxos that passed age and size limits, but have been used too many times" ?
05:55 < Talkless> I've already bumpet takex_utxo_retries once a bit.
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07:04 < Talkless> An now this: "ABORT:Could not find orders to complete transaction" multiple times already :(
07:37 <@waxwing> Talkless, don't bump taker_utxo_retries
07:38 <@waxwing> on reflection it was a bad idea to make that configurable, there's a tiny set of cases where taht's interesting, as the comment above it says, *don't* edit those settings
07:39 <@waxwing> think of it as a consensus variable; if your software thinks a utxo is valid to make a commitment, but your counterparties don't, they're going to reject you and you're not going to understand why.
07:39 <@waxwing> you can make it more restrictive, but there's no reason you'd want to, and it's best if everyone just sticks to one default/consensus
07:41 <@waxwing> when first starting JM as a taker, it's a bit of a pain in that: you must wait at least 5 confirmations after funding. also, it's a good idea, as explained in the docs, to fund with say 3 different utxos (so pay to 3 different addresses) just to make commitment errors far less likely. once it's "got started" there are unlikely to be issues, except you can't make join requests very rapidly (that's the intent, to prevent attackers from doing that)
07:43 <@waxwing> your ABORT message is most likely because of your making requests with invalid commitment utxos (iirc  i coded the makers specifically not to report the reason in that case but just to refuse to continue)
07:55 < Talkless> Thanks waxwing, etherything here is overwhelming
07:56 < Talkless> waxwing: How should I do with " ABORT:Could not find orders to complete ", increase some sort of timoeut? This is from sendplayment.py
07:56 <@waxwing> have you reset your taker_utxo_retries back to default , and have you not changed the other two? age and amount?
07:56 < Talkless> I just reset to 3. Was it 3?
07:57 <@waxwing> retries is 3, yes
07:57 < Talkless> aget is set to 5, I don't beleive I'ver chaged it
07:57 <@waxwing> right good
07:57 < Talkless> But I still didn't get what shuld I do when I get this error
07:57 < Talkless> "Utxos that passed age and size limits"
07:58 <@waxwing> right; are there any in that list?
07:58 < Talkless> I just send them somewhere and back to JM wallet or smth?
07:58 < Talkless> There was, I just now sent it away out of JM
07:58 <@waxwing> wait, don't do anything. are there any utxos in that list? read it.
07:58 <@waxwing> oh; so you don't have any coins now, you've emptied the wallet?
07:58 < Talkless> and sending away all coins from depth 1 or how it's called...
07:58 < Talkless> it's just too much issues for me :)
07:59 <@waxwing> ok. it's a shame, you were close.
07:59 < Talkless> yes I am emptying
07:59 <@waxwing> but fine.
07:59 < Talkless> I'll try next time with bigger ammounts
07:59 <@waxwing> use -N 0 to avoid any coinjoin
07:59 <@waxwing> just sends as a normal bitcoin tx
07:59 < Talkless> good to know, thanks
08:00 <@waxwing> `python sendpayment.py -N 0 -m mixdepth walletname amount-in-satoshis destinationaddress`
08:00 <@waxwing> and use 0 for amount-in-satoshis to sweep all coins in that mixdepth
08:00 < Talkless> waxwing: my problems started when depth 0 got single UTXO insode INTERNAL and tumbler failed with it
08:01 < Talkless> then I've tried -M1, but got these "Makers who didnt respond"
08:01 < Talkless> So I just bailing out for now :/
08:01 <@waxwing> but, your problems sound like they're all connected with you resetting taker_utxo_retries  i think
08:01 < Talkless> Oh right
08:01 <@waxwing> if you did that, there is a very big chance of everything failing. i was helping you reset/diagnose that.
08:02 < Talkless> I see, by "fixing" tathat retry error I've totaly made it broken :_
08:02 < Talkless> :)_     
08:02 < Talkless> damn
08:02 <@waxwing> curious, i guess you didn't see the comment above that section saying "Don't edit these"?
08:02 < Talkless> Yes :D
08:02 < Talkless> sorry
08:02 < Talkless> I guess I needed gun up my head not to edit it :)
08:02 <@waxwing> another thing about tumbler is, you should be very patient with it. it's designed to run for days, ideally.
08:02 <@waxwing> you can be impatient with it and have it run for let's say 5-8 hours but even that's too quick really.
08:03 <@waxwing> well, nah, it's ok, it's just not ideal.
08:05 < Talkless> waxwing: it would be nice to have links to F.A.Q on how to deal with these 1. 2. 3. problems 
08:05 <@waxwing> but also Talkless you mentioned very small amounts? that's going to be a problem. i wouldn't try tumbler with less than 0.1-0.5 coins total really, you can run it with small amounts, but things don't work well.
08:05 <@waxwing> what are these 1.2.3. problems?
08:06 < Talkless> It prints these 3 poblems after failing to source commitment, first one is "Utxos that passed age and size limits, but have been used too many times"
08:07 <@waxwing> oh, but i think that error is, deliberately, very verbose, and it tells you what you need to know about those lists. istr it also prints the error to a file, but anyway it's there.
08:07 < Talkless> waxwing: about ammount, I believe everyhting actually started after first mix, when mixdepth=0 left with aroud 6EUR value of BTC. I tried multiple times with reduced fee or something, until I got this UTXO issue.. if I recall correclty. I got various issues actually so I'm just overwhelmed.
08:08 < Talkless> waxwing: I did not had idea what to do with this "bad" utxo
08:08 < Talkless> so common issue troubleshooting guide would be nice somewhere.
08:08 <@waxwing> yes. i think that is probably the biggest edge case where tumbler can't progress, give me a sec on that (but generally very small *total* amounts are not a good idea as i said)
08:08 < Talkless> Yes, error was verbose, but not sure what to do. OK, just bump single number :))
08:09 <@waxwing> read it. it tells you exactly what to do based on what is in each list (usually the answer is, do nothing and wait)
08:09 < Talkless> Ohh.. wait..?
08:09 < Talkless> so I just had to retry some time later?
08:10 <@waxwing> but please wait a min, i want to answer your question about very small amounts remaining in mixdepth 0
08:10 < Talkless> ok     
08:10 <@waxwing> yes, wait: let me find the exact error message so you can read it again
08:10 < Talkless> ok     
08:10 < Talkless> I misunderstood, I though I just had to retry later to avoid this UTXO issue.
08:10 < Talkless> to "wait".
08:11 <@waxwing> well it may not be super clear but: https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/blob/master/jmclient/jmclient/podle.py#L53-L66
08:11 <@waxwing> so the thing is, there it says "you can change the settings but it's generally inadvisable". that might be the mistake on my part here: people will, reasonably, interpret that as an option, but it really isn't an option at all for ordinary usage.
08:12 < Talkless> yeah, so I just changed it :)
08:12 < Talkless> There coud be: "..instead, do X to fix problems Y with this UTXO"
08:12 <@waxwing> the point is the tumbler just keeps trying until you have 5 confs (assuming you don't)
08:13 <@waxwing> so you don't have to do anything, unless you have no utxos that are at least 20% of the size of the join, and you haven't already used them 3 times for commitment.
08:14 <@waxwing> in that case, the tumbler will shut down and tell you that there is no way of progressing. but that seems highly unlikely to happen in practice.
08:14 <@waxwing> let me get back to the problem of very small amounts, just a sec
08:16 < Talkless> waxwing: I've also got some exceptions during my first experiment, like this: https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/issues/169#issue-343323317
08:16 < Talkless> so now I am using master branch, instead of latest tag.
08:16 <@waxwing> Talkless, yes i know, that's why i said go back to 0.3.3. but tbh the most recent bug you found is not consequential, it just made the shutdown messy instead of clean.
08:16 <@waxwing> so about small amounts, see this commit: https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/commit/5b30404bb04d819b6fcd857881be3231368c06a4
08:17 <@waxwing> this was meant to ensure that the fraction of the last step is at least 5% of the total. but an amount like 6EUR is small. what's that in btc?
08:17 < Talkless>      0,00104465
08:17 <@waxwing> ok around 0.001 or 100000 sats. that's pretty borderline, a lot of makers will have larger mins than that.
08:18 < Talkless> total was about of 35-36 euros, so 6 selft, and else was split basically apart.
08:18 < Talkless> left*
08:18 <@waxwing> scan through the https://joinmarket.me/ob/ list "minimum size" and you'll see
08:19 <@waxwing> yes that's too little to test the tumbler, as i said above. you hit bunches of edge cases. i said above i recommend 0.1-0.5 as a realistic small amount for that.
08:19 < Talkless> yes I se quit a few with 001
08:19 <@waxwing> if, understandably, you don't want to trust that much to the software when you're just testing it, test with sendpayment.
08:19 < Talkless> So I had to aither fund zeroth depth, or move it away with -N0 ?
08:20 <@waxwing> i don't understand the question. why those two options, they seem totally different.
08:20 < Talkless> either*, I'm really bad at writing in non-native language at speed...
08:20 < Talkless> So what else could I do if zeroth deth left with 0.001 ?
08:21 < Talkless> tumbler does not work with it, so what now?
08:21 <@waxwing> there are 37 counterparties on that list and virtually none of them have minsizes as low as 0.001
08:21 <@waxwing> well, probably take the coins out with -N 0 and sweep using the syntax i gave you above
08:22 <@waxwing> or, if you plan to experiment later, leave them there and fund more coins later?
08:23 < Talkless> The bigger total starting ammount, the less probability to get these small un-tumblable UTXO, or they happen time to time?
08:25 <@waxwing> see the commit I pointed to above. that was intended to prevent this (somewhat rare) problem that the final coinjoin in a single mixdepth ends up being too small.
08:25 <@waxwing> it's somewhat rare because it doesn't happen with anything except the final coinjoin in a single mixdepth, because for the other ones we use a "tweak" function that changes the amount of the coinjoin until it works.
08:25 <@waxwing> but you used far too small a total amount for the tumbler basically; you won't get liquidity from makers for that.
08:26 <@waxwing> the vast majority of joins are, i think, between 0.1 and 10 btc.
08:26 < Talkless> Is there a recommendation of "minimal" size?
08:26 < Talkless> Oh, 0.1 is quite a lot
08:26 <@waxwing> you can use the -s option on tumbler.py to ensure that the coinjoin sizes are larger than that minimum.
08:27 <@waxwing> yes 0.1 is quite a lot, i quite often do sendpayment myself with amounts like 0.03 or 0.05 ... for a single coinjoin i think 0.01 is about as low as you should go. but check the orderbook link i gave you.
08:27 <@waxwing> the /ob one
08:29 < Talkless> 0.015 _could_ be reasonable for me, for some random spending, to send/tunble for "escaping" exchanges..
08:30 < Talkless> Maybe I just had to use "sendpayment" once and that's "enought for dayly use" ?
08:31 <@waxwing> i couldn't say. i wouldn't assume that it does very much, except perhaps make the overall ecosystem a bit healthier. that's why i use it really.
08:32 <@waxwing> bear in mind, these small amounts work ok today, because bitcoin tx fees are low, but if bitcoin tx fees get high, you can end up paying a lot; whatever is a typical bitcoin tx fee, you should multiply it by maybe 5 to get a sense of how expensive this is.
08:32 < Talkless> yeah, right.
08:32 <@waxwing> so if fees today are 1 cent, it's 5 cents. But if fees are $1, it's $5
08:32 < Talkless> any plas to go fully into native segwit, to reduce more? :)
08:32 < Talkless> plans*
08:32 <@waxwing> (obviously just an example, you can make it lower by using less counterparties)
08:33 <@waxwing> well not active plans, we support sending to bech32, but yes clearly it'd be better if we switched to either native segwit or a deliberately mixed case.
08:33 < Talkless> and tx_fees could reduce fees right?
08:33 < Talkless> I have it bumped now up to 5, some time ago tried even 10
08:34 <@waxwing> Talkless, yes but there's another option
08:35 <@waxwing> if you set tx_fees to a number > 144 it will be treated as satoshi/kilobyte
08:35 <@waxwing> so if you set tx_fees = 5000 it's requesting a fee of 5 sats/byte
08:35 < Talkless> o right, it's enought to set 2-3 today :)
08:35 <@waxwing> iirc it does randomise it slightly (20%) to avoid watermarking, so don't be surprised if the final number doesn't match exactly
08:36 < Talkless> ok     
08:36 <@waxwing> true, but Core's fee estimator has a big lag, so if there's a brief spike it sometimes overpays. but shrug, it's fine.
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08:37 < Talkless> Uhm waxwing, I cannot move away last 3-rd UTXO away, it says:
08:37 < Talkless> [MainThread  ] [ERROR]  There are no utxos in mixdepth: 1, quitting.
08:37 < Talkless> I am pretty sure that threre is:
08:37 <@waxwing> is it unconfirmed?
08:38 <@waxwing> probably that's the reason. wait for it to confirm and try again.
08:38 < Talkless> https://pastebin.mozilla.org/9091027
08:39 < Talkless> ugm gonna check, but I believe it was...
08:41 < Talkless> oh, unconfirmed for an hour and counting
08:42 <@waxwing> there is a way to send it anyway. should i tell  you?
08:42 <@waxwing> set this variable in `POLICY` of joinmarket.cfg: listunspent_args = [0]
08:43 <@waxwing> another open issue from like 3 years ago: our wallet display function should show both unconfirmed and confirmed separately.
08:43 < Talkless> yeah marking unconfirmed would help
08:44 <@waxwing> atm it just shows unconfirmed, always, so people don't panic thinking they lost their coins
08:44 < Talkless> it cound be suffixed with [unconfirmed] or smth
08:44 <@waxwing> yes, PRs welcome
08:45 < Talkless> that would be nice to PR, but I've got too much contribution TODO's for me already :/ .
08:45 < Talkless> OK, thanks waxwing for all great help! I have to go away for a while.
08:47 <@waxwing> np     
08:47 <@waxwing> sorry for your troubles, especially the secp256k1 thing. we need a new binding but it's work that nobody seems to be likely to do, at least not soon.
08:47 <@waxwing> it's interesting to learn what troubles you had though, helpful report, cheers
09:25 < Talkless> sure thing, bye, enought bitcoining for today :)
09:26 < arubi> sorry, I missed a lot of the backlog.  so install.sh does fail on arm and the reason is that secpk256k1-py bundles an old libsecp256k1 right?
09:26 < Talkless> yeah something like that
09:26 < Talkless> bundled version does not compile with ssl 1.1
09:26 < Talkless> ok sorry have to go
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09:27 < arubi> hm, well it works on x86 with openssl 1.1.0f
09:28 < arubi> (we have debian stretch docker test in travis)
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09:33 <@waxwing> arubi, maybe you can add that info to the issue
09:33 <@waxwing> #177
09:34 < arubi> will do.
09:45 < arubi> what are we using openssl for?  twisted?
09:51 <@waxwing> yeah :( that's another thing i would really rather wasn't there...
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09:53 < arubi> yea understandable..  it's probably a lot of work to implement the irc stuff though
09:59 < arubi> in any case, if secp256k1-py can use an independently installed libsecp, then I can probably add that in to install.sh.  the problem will again be in testing it - no arm host for me :)
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12:49 <@waxwing> hmm think github bot might be down
12:49 <@waxwing> oh; presumably it's the +r thing
12:49 <@waxwing> should i risk it? :)
12:49 < undeath> some hours ago it was still going on
12:49 <@waxwing> right, not needed
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12:58 < davex__> does nopara hang out here?  is there an irc channel for wasabi wallet?
13:15 <@waxwing> good Q, he doesn't seem to use IRC
13:15 <@waxwing> maybe on slack you can find him
13:15 <@waxwing> arubi, what's this one? https://travis-ci.org/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/jobs/411886791#L81
13:15 < arubi> I just saw this on my own fork
13:16 < arubi> seems that osx no longer has virtualenv
13:16 < davex__> gah i hate slack.  ok thanks.
13:19 < arubi> might be an easy fix.  let's see
13:20 < arubi> oh lol, it's even worse : https://travis-ci.org/fivepiece/joinmarket-clientserver/jobs/411896558#L20-L23
13:21 <@waxwing> right, that's plausible i guess. they discontinued python2, that means?
13:22 < undeath> that would be pretty harsh
13:22 < arubi> trying to find out.  you'd think that they'd email users about this
13:25 < arubi> https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/reference/osx says that virtualenv is available via pip.  trying
13:25 <@waxwing> was gonna quickly build another release but won't do it now if we can't fix the travis build
13:25 <@waxwing> thanks for taking a look arubi 
13:33 -!- mode/#joinmarket [-r] by waxwing     
13:33 <@waxwing> just curious :)
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13:35 < GitHub17> [joinmarket-clientserver] fivepiece opened pull request #179: Install virtualenv on travis osx via pip (master...travis_osx_python) https://git.io/fNPcr
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13:35 < arubi> hehe just in time :)
13:54 <@waxwing> cheers, seemed to work
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13:54 < GitHub25> [joinmarket-clientserver] AdamISZ pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/fNPW8
13:54 < GitHub25> joinmarket-clientserver/master 51ca0b9 fivepiece: pip install virtualenv on travix osx
13:54 < GitHub25> joinmarket-clientserver/master f8d1cb8 AdamISZ: Merge #179: Install virtualenv on travis osx via pip...
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13:54 < GitHub166> [joinmarket-clientserver] AdamISZ closed pull request #179: Install virtualenv on travis osx via pip (master...travis_osx_python) https://git.io/fNPcr
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14:33 < GitHub49> [joinmarket-clientserver] AdamISZ pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/fNP4y
14:33 < GitHub49> joinmarket-clientserver/master 8bfdb39 AdamISZ: update docs and versions for 0.3.5
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14:40 < GitHub76> [joinmarket-clientserver] AdamISZ force-pushed master from 8bfdb39 to a2d2616: https://git.io/v5bgz
14:40 < GitHub76> joinmarket-clientserver/master a2d2616 AdamISZ: update docs and versions for 0.3.5
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14:42 <@waxwing> lol git tag help creates a tag called help :)
14:45 <@waxwing> ok, pushed it out. if anyone notices a problem let me know.
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15:24 < grubles> for when you're in duress but have access to your repository
15:28 <@waxwing> :)     
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15:44 <@waxwing> sigh
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