--- Day changed Wed Jan 30 2019
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04:31 < adlai> congratulations on the release, and thank you for not breaking compatibility with older versions :)
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04:48 < waxwing> yeah hopefully that doesn't happen, although it's hardly a great idea not to upgrade ... agora's aberrant behaviour is particularly unhelpful right now.
04:49 < waxwing> so belcher i thought you might be interested in harding's thoughts here: https://mastodon.social/web/statuses/101503003373125263
04:49 < waxwing> i think he had a threading fail the second one is: https://mastodon.social/web/statuses/101503019116008029
04:50 < belcher> ty     
04:51 < waxwing> i'll probably have a think about it after lunch :)
04:51 < belcher> so its a bit like CoinJoinUnlimited where some outputs go directly to a LN channel
04:51 < waxwing> also Trace published an interview with me yesterday, there's a short chunk about joinmarket about a third of the way in: https://www.bitcoin.kn/2019/01/adam-gibson-fungibility/
04:55 < belcher> awesome
04:57 < belcher> im ill in bed with fever right now, hopefully i can listen to it at some point
04:57 < belcher> i came across this great idea yesterday (which is new to me but maybe not to others) https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/wiki/Rendez-vous-mechanism-on-top-of-Sphinx
04:58 < belcher> we know LN uses onion routing and this is the equivalent of tor hidden services for LN
04:58 < belcher> so you could accept a payment without revealing your channel and associated UTXO or IP addres
05:09 < waxwing> yes that's certainly interesting, if complicated. also nicely explains some of the limitations of this onion-routing approach.
05:10 < waxwing> maybe we should run the whole LN on a giant dc-net :)
05:14 < Sentineo> ah dc-net :D
05:14 < Sentineo> sweet memories :)
05:18 < waxwing> are we talking about the same thing? i meant a dining cryptographers network (like mixnet, i think technically it's different but i forget all the definitions)
05:25 < belcher> complicated technically but in terms of UX i dont think it will be that bad
05:25 < belcher> tor hidden services UX isnt that bad, you have to use a .onion instead of a real host, and use tor browser but thats all
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05:28 < sturles> Caught this exeption: 
05:28 < sturles> File ".../joinmarket-clientserver/jmvenv/lib/python3.5/site-packages/jmclient/blockchaininterface.py", line 695, in outputs_watcher if not res:
05:28 < sturles> builtins.UnboundLocalError: local variable 'res' referenced before assignment
05:29 < sturles> Perhaps move res = None on line 692 to above try: on line 684?
05:29 < waxwing> sturles, oops that looks pretty bad! .. will look into it. what's your joinmarket and bitcoin version? (just in case it helps)
05:31 < sturles> Joinmarket freshly pulled from git a couple of hours ago.
05:31 < waxwing> yep. so looks like you got an error other than JsonRpcError. interesting. did you see what error it was?
05:31 < waxwing> (but yes ofc bugfix as you indicate is needed, will do)
05:32 < sturles> No, I didn't see it.
05:32 < sturles> https://0bin.net/paste/et+dtVEXYy9NuN-g#+IuZtofwYXz+SvTQuSh1dVdHL1NnM9YoSnV9YcBiBoS
05:33 < waxwing> i guess the `log.info(str(e))` should have showed up, but it'll be outside that stack trace. but it's only of secondary importance of course, the bugfix applies whatever the error was. just curious.
05:33 < waxwing> it must be something very rare.
05:33 < sturles> Bitcoin version 0.17.99..  0.17.0 + some newer changes, but it has been running for a while..
05:50 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/CgRelayBot] [cgan/waxwing__] AlexCato, i think your editor may have been using tabs instead of spaces? i noticed a conflict in blockchaininterface.py ... my memory is hazy but istr it was after an edit that you recently made.
06:01 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/CgRelayBot] [cgan/AlexCato] checking...
06:01 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/CgRelayBot] [cgan/AlexCato] though im running master for many days now without problem
06:02 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/CgRelayBot] [cgan/AlexCato] nope, all my edits were in configure.py and message_channel.py
06:04 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/CgRelayBot] [cgan/AlexCato] ah no, there was something with bci as well, i remember. It was that dynamic tx fee floor thing
06:04 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/CgRelayBot] [cgan/AlexCato] checking that one
06:04 < waxwing> right, it was that one. but it's possible there's some weird bug in my editor. i do remember it started complaining after that edit.
06:05 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/CgRelayBot] [cgan/AlexCato] #272, checking code
06:06 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/CgRelayBot] [cgan/AlexCato] yeah, theres a tab in line 309
06:06 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/CgRelayBot] [cgan/AlexCato] its in the electrum blockchain interface code
06:07 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/CgRelayBot] [cgan/AlexCato] thats probably why we never noticed
06:07 < waxwing> ok thanks. i'll remove it in this bugfix commit.
06:10 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/CgRelayBot] [cgan/AlexCato] wondering if that really is the error though, the log seems to point to a totally different code part?
06:11 < waxwing> sorry alexcato, what error?
06:11 < waxwing> you mean the thing sturles mentioned? no it's entirely orthogonal, but i had to correct the formatting for my tests.
06:11 < waxwing> (well and so my editor would stop complaining)
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06:15 < GitHub154> [joinmarket-clientserver] AdamISZ opened pull request #325: Bugfix crash on unexpected error from gettransaction call. (master...fix-gettransaction-res) https://git.io/fhMYl
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06:15 < waxwing> i will just merge that directly as long as it passes sturles
06:28 < waxwing> that's interesting, i don't get this when i run flake8 locally:
06:28 < waxwing> https://travis-ci.org/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/jobs/486439424#L2083
06:28 < waxwing> jmclient/test/test_utxomanager.py:84:12: F632 use ==/!= to compare str, bytes, and int literals
06:29 < waxwing> obv that's not relevant, everything passes normally apart from that. i wonder if flake version has updated, i guess that'd be the logical explanation.
06:29 < undeath> my guess is on a new flake version as well
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06:30 < GitHub178> [joinmarket-clientserver] AdamISZ pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/fhMOH
06:30 < GitHub178> joinmarket-clientserver/master e3a11c0 AdamISZ: Merge #325: Bugfix crash on unexpected error from gettransaction call....
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06:30 -!- GitHub116 [GitHub116@gateway/service/github.com/x-icrlvibfucuezdeb] has joined #joinmarket     
06:30 < GitHub116> [joinmarket-clientserver] AdamISZ closed pull request #325: Bugfix crash on unexpected error from gettransaction call. (master...fix-gettransaction-res) https://git.io/fhMYl
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06:46 < waxwing> belcher, so opening channels with change clearly wouldn't be an easy sell if it was every coinjoin, but the kernel of the idea seems very interesting - perhaps you could splice into channels with the change.
06:47 < waxwing> also, there's an amount mismatch, due to coinjoins generally being for much larger amounts than lightning, but we could maybe finagle a way to avoid the coinjoin fee problem with this.
06:47 < waxwing> so we could get that quasi holy grail of "still have the incentive model but not the asymmetry fingerprint" which damages the privacy of the joins.
06:48 < waxwing> (also re: amount mismatch, you could of course just do smaller coinjoins, too)
07:08 < waxwing> hmm i guess splicing wouldn't perform the function of hiding a fee; if N makers used the coinjoin to splice their coinjoin fee into their channel, they'd have to provide their funding utxos as inputs to the coinjoin, and then get the new funding utxo as output, which would show the fee even more explicitly than now. i think.
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08:26 < waxwing> also laughably expensive :)
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09:34 < belcher> waxwing im listening to the podcast, its good
09:34 < belcher> which panel where you on?
09:38 < waxwing> lisbon. this was recorded at the lisbon conf (building.. etc)
09:39 < belcher> was that a few months ago? or has there been a new one
09:39 < belcher> "price is up, full nodes are up, etc" ok so it was a few months ago :p
09:51 < waxwing> :)     
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11:13 < belcher> reading through the old bitcoinops newsletters, i realize they covered my PR to add the getnodeaddresses RPC call
11:16 < harding> belcher: it did seem like a useful thing.
11:17 < belcher> for sure, so far theres no solution for privately broadcasting txes, except opening a block explorer pushtx web page in tor browser and pasting in your tx hex
11:17 < belcher> err, i mean running a node over clearnet but broadcasting over tor
11:17 < belcher> i hope to add the feature to electrum personal server and joinmarket
11:19 < belcher> bitcoinops are really good, i think ill get them stickied on r/bitcoin at some point
11:19 < harding> Thanks (for the praise; no pressure on the stickying).
11:20 < belcher> i didnt know you worked on them :)
11:22 < harding> :-)     
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11:34 < achow101> belcher: wladimir has a submittx script that lets you send a tx to a node directly without needing to run a node
11:34 < achow101> https://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin-submittx
11:36 < belcher> i know but its a bit fiddly, you have to provide (just one) peer ip address yourself
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11:38 < achow101> you can provide nodes from a file. I've used it before with the entire seed nodes list from core
11:38 < belcher> oh interesting, TIL
11:44 < waxwing> harding, ah i guess you weren't here earlier, i can pastebin the few comments i made, i was curious what you and belcher (and anyone else ofc) thinks about how channels could fold in here, if at all.
11:45 < waxwing> https://0bin.net/paste/ro34xDjbSeIs7YW4#QHFE-uoTfT36Q/EFaT4Pvh5lqkzrUhvFciTR/P5Dfv2
11:46 < waxwing> i guess you weren't thinking about a JM scenario so much (although with eltoo, perhaps). i can't easily see how something practical could be done with big multiparty coinjoins (esp. in repeated rounds).
11:48 < harding> waxwing: actually, I did write up an n-party scheme for buying out a change output, but it was really ugly in the case where one of the parties became uncooperative (although it was atomic in that everyone would get an appropriate refund).  After that fell apart is when I tooted at you the really simple 2-party solution for current software.
11:49 < waxwing> i see. i can imagine such a thing is possible, yes, but i'm worried more about whether it's practical; we can't have people opening a channel with every coinjoin they do, right.
11:49 < waxwing> so you're perhaps more thinking the other way? when they want to open a channel, they look to do a coinjoin?
11:50 < harding> waxwing: why not?  With every coinjoin now, each one of the is creating a change output.  If you can compress that down to one change output for any size join, that doesn't seem too bad.
11:52 < waxwing> so is that an N-party channel then? (eltoo?) not sure i'm understanding.
11:52 < waxwing> i mean if so the answer is i don't think people will be particularly keen on creating and sharing state with participants for a long time after the join, in general.
11:55 < harding> Oh, I did say that as a simple extension of my 2-party idea last night.  However, the idea I didn't say was (in basic) that the change output pays n-of-n multisig and there's a presigned nLockTime refund tranaction that distributes the funds as the change would've been.  While the refund is timelocked, the participants create alternative spends that contain hashlocks that one party (Alice) can buy out.  If Alice buys out everyone, nice 
11:55 < harding> participants would collapse that down into a simple spend to Alice's address (no hashes/preimages put on chain).
11:58 < harding> In that approach, Alice would be using LN to buy preimages off of the other participants after the coinjoin was created.  That has problems with uncooperative parties, as any of the n-of-n signers refusing to cooperate after a certain point would stall Alice's progress in sequentially buying out the participants.
11:59 < waxwing> ah. interesting. yes. an ideal solution would be one that still gives benefit when some are uncooperative or unable to take part.
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12:00 < waxwing> we may be able to do coinswap as well as off-chain, but clearly the off-chain is the best way. hmm i am warming to this :) cue some reason it's totally broken and can't work :)
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