--- Day changed Tue Jul 30 2019
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13:30 < belcher> my fidelity bond proposal on the bitcoin dev mailing list also now has replies discussing coin age
13:32 < waxwing> oh i keep forgetting to check the dev mailing list ever since i put it in a separate folder
13:34 < belcher> i normally read it from the website, its organised into nice threads there https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2019-July/thread.html
13:41 < belcher> though it seems that page takes a while to update
13:44 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] The first thing that went through my mind when reading the fidelity bond thing: if I burn funds, thats a pretty big risk. There's no certainty that the fees will enable me to make them back until expiration, potentially leading to a loss...
13:45 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] currently only opportunity costs are lost if you try to be a maker, but dont get any joins
13:45 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] then, its gonna be a bet on the future weeks/months that there will be a steady number of joins to make the burned funds back
13:46 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] it seems such a trivial thought, that I must have overlooked or misunderstood something
13:47 < belcher> you're right, it is a bet
13:47 < belcher> presumably coinjoin fees for fidelity-bonded-makers will go up until makers really do make that bet
13:47 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] extrapolating from current joinmarket activity only works up to some extend... since joins are basically free
13:47 < belcher> because for sure using fidelity bonds is good for takers, and takers are the ones who choose
13:48 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] yeah, we dont know if takers will still use the service if there's suddenly notable fees
13:48 < belcher> miner fees are already much bigger than coinjoin fees and takers still use joinmarket
13:49 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] from my observations, there's a lot less joins when tx fees are higher
13:49 < belcher> i imagine the offered fidelity bonds will ramp up slowly, makers will try locking 0.01btc for a while and it goes well then they'll add more
13:50 < belcher> thats one of the open questions in the document, whether takers will accept higher fees
13:51 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] yeah, that probably will work with smaller burns (if the burn route is chosen). Locking funds will be a lesser psychological hurdle... but as you've shown in math, you need to lock *a lot* of funds due to the low opportunity costs
13:52 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] i'm glad you wrote this all up. It
13:52 < belcher> fwiw i mostly considered burning coins because the maths for it is easy, the value of such a bond is just V^2
13:52 < belcher> i doubt many people will actually burn coins
13:52 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] It's good that there's a discussion about it
13:53 < belcher> i still think takers will accept higher cj fees, theres so many other costs associated with using bitcoin (bid/ask spread, miner fees, volatility, learning how to actually use the thing) yet people still use it, so i bet the coinjoin fees part will always be a lesser cost
13:53 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] i'd wait and see how it goes if burning is used, but fear that everyone else will be waiting as well ;) It's gonna be intersting
13:53 < belcher> after reading the discussion on the ML, im coming round to the coin age idea too
13:53 < belcher> using coin age doesnt require any recurring miner fee costs (locking means you have to move the funds to a new address every 6 months or whatever the lock period is)
13:54 < belcher> "In summary I see three mechansims of making use costly: 1. burn 2. time locked funds, locker will incure opportunity cost 3. proven coin age, holder did incure opportunity cost"
13:54 < belcher> from the ML
13:55 < belcher> the maths for coin age is exactly the same as for locking, as far as i see, the sacrifice is exp(rT)-1
13:55 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] yeah, i read that a few minutes ago. I like that as well. What I dont get is why there's talk about SPV and proving how old an UTXO actually is... not a problem with a full node, right?
13:56 < belcher> i.e. the interest payments you wouldve gotten had you put those bitcoins in a risk-free bank account
13:56 < belcher> yep, a full node makes that proof easy
13:56 < belcher> there is still the issue that proving that a coin is unspent isnt possible for SPV clients
13:57 < belcher> so using coin age could close off joinmarket for SPV clients (electrum)
13:58 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] but that problem we already have with the commitments we require for takers, we require coins to be older than 5 confirmations already?
13:58 < belcher> another concern is that it would be nice if coin age worked for any kind of scriptPubKey, so for example people might have coins stored in multisig addresses that they could use as fidelity bonds... so the signature proof scheme should support multisig too (or any spk)
13:59 < belcher> those commitments are verified by makers, which all run full nodes
13:59 < belcher> fidelity bond TXOs would be verified by takers, which might use SPV
14:00 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] exactly. And requiring a maker to run a full node is fine imho, its in their best interest to do that anyways. Electrum would be more targeted at the taker side
14:01 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] oh, I see where I thought wrong
14:01 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] currently the taker side does ofc know how old their own coins are
14:01 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] nvm my last few sentences
14:02 < belcher> harding has an idea for SPV with client-side block filtering, which is that the taker checks whether that scriptpubkey matched any later filter and has to download the blocks to see if they've been spent
14:03 < belcher> so two possible ways of doing SPV fidelity bond verification for coin age is 1) electrum / address index lookup server and 2) client side block filtering
14:03 < belcher> those are fine ways i think, so that problem is solved
14:16 < belcher> burning coins also provides a boundary condition, because locking up coins for infinity time is the same as burning them
14:16 < belcher> so the formula for the two cases has the be the same, its a good check that the formula makes sense
14:28 < belcher> waxwing it looks like your email about the Moser paper hasnt appeared on the ML website, but has in my email client
14:46 < belcher> i wonder if its because i am one of the email recipients and the ML mod hasn't yet approved the emails
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23:42 < waxwing> yah that'll be it no doubt
23:43 < waxwing> changed emails, prob didn't help