--- Day changed Wed Aug 28 2019
02:48 < waxwing> arubi, ping
02:49 < waxwing> (seems a little easier to talk here). i honestly can't remember a con with using the pubkey, and indeed it'll significantly pull down the nastier complexity we have w.r.t recovery.
02:49 < waxwing> as of right now i plan to update v1 according to that, but i've been travelling and only just getting back to normal, will have a little more of a think today before updating the draft.
02:50 < waxwing> qubenix, the doc update is merged. you can link to the subsection of the USAGE.md for the recovery details if you feel like PRing again.
02:51 < waxwing> https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/blob/master/docs/USAGE.md#bip32-structure
02:51 < waxwing> (oh, there's a formatting snafu there, but not one that matters)
02:54 -!- azizLIGHT [~azizLIGHT@unaffiliated/azizlight] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]     
03:01 < waxwing> (fixed it)
03:50 < qubenix> waxwing: pr'd it.
03:53 -!- Kacie17Grimes [~Kacie17Gr@ns334669.ip-5-196-64.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]     
05:27 < Sentineo> how can one send funds from the joinmarket wallet ? sendpayment.py seems to do a coinjoin first. Is there a way to send right away? Or is it not advisable?
05:43 -!- undeath [~undeath@hashcat/team/undeath] has joined #joinmarket     
06:12 -!- azizLIGHT [~azizLIGHT@unaffiliated/azizlight] has joined #joinmarket     
07:24 < waxwing> Sentineo, use -N0
07:24 < waxwing> it's in the new usage.md and also in the help of sendpayment (although not criticiizing you for not noticing the latter)
08:16 < adlai> Sentineo: if you wanna live dangerously, list the full wallet, find an address with enough funds to cover the planned payment, compute just that privkey (iirc there's a wallet.py option for this), and sweep into a nonprivate wallet
08:17 < adlai> when challenged by the defi/dlt/tla police as to the source of funds, tell them Craig Wright sold you a paper wallet
08:38 < waxwing> adlai, Sentineo you can also use the freeze function to do that, although it's much easier in the GUI
08:38 < waxwing> go to the coins tab and freeze each utxo in the mixdepth except the one you want to spend. then spend with amount 0 (sweep) from that mixdepth.
08:38 < waxwing> indeed it's a useful thing to be able to do from time to time
08:38 < adlai> what's a GUI :P
08:39 < waxwing> it can also be done on CLI. just, without a future PR, you have to freeze each utxo one by one which is annoying.
09:57 < arubi> waxwing, pong.  sure - no problem.
10:28 < raedah> A few of you might remember me talking about a coinjoin implementation on decred a few years ago. Its been done now and will be being released for decred mainnet shortly.
10:42 -!- undeath [~undeath@hashcat/team/undeath] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]     
11:45 -!- kristapsk___ [~KK@gateway/tor-sasl/kristapsk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]     
11:54 -!- StopAndDecrypt_ [~StopAndDe@107.181.189.42] has joined #joinmarket     
11:55 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@unaffiliated/stopanddecrypt] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]     
12:34 -!- kristapsk [~KK@gateway/tor-sasl/kristapsk] has joined #joinmarket     
12:59 < waxwing> ok thanks raedah 
12:59 < waxwing> arubi, yeah just getting down to sketching it out again. there's not much to observe eh, it's just simpler.
12:59 < waxwing> the same ecdh thing applies as before so you can recover.
13:22 < arubi> waxwing, right, well I guess at least it's easier to rewrite that bip section than to (re)write the code that does the previous version..  :)
13:32 < waxwing> sure, i am *fairly* keen to write my own little implementation, not least because i need to make some test vectors, but yeah, writing this out in detail as a spec is hopefully going to be very useful.
13:33 < waxwing> one thing that bothers me is i really want to set up a tor hidden service that could support publishing proposals, but doing that *properly* is out of my skill set.
13:33 < waxwing> if i tried to do it well, rather than half-ass so to speak, it'd take me way too long i fear
13:38 -!- davex__ [~user@45.74.60.132] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]     
13:39 < raedah> here is some technical layout on how the decred implementation works, https://blog.decred.org/2019/08/28/Iterating-Privacy/
13:39 < raedah> curious of others thoughts on the design
13:40 -!- davex__ [~user@45.74.60.132] has joined #joinmarket     
13:41 < waxwing> raedah, how did you get on with the slot assignment part of cs++ ?
13:41 < waxwing> btw interesting doc, i've only scanned it so far, thanks
13:42 < waxwing> istr that the polynomial solving needed is a bit computationally intensive, that's why i'm asking abotu the slot assignment algo
13:42 < waxwing> oh .. this is long. i should probably read it all before asking dumb questions lol
13:51 < raedah> used the method described in the cspp paper, computationally intensive part is handled by an optimized library and ends up being quite reasonable to do.
13:52 < raedah> can atleast speak for the parts I contributed, there was some internal competition to drive this one home
13:52 < raedah> some parts of the design im not completely happy with, but will be iterated
13:54 < raedah> primarily, the problem of coincidence is solved by the staking sytem and huge mix volume is expected
13:54 < adlai> worse is always better, given a sufficiently good set of betterrers :)
13:54 < waxwing> yeah the use case of fixed denomination is a help i guess
13:54 -!- Giszmo1 [~leo@2407:7000:9d28:5100:8de1:da9d:15e7:2581] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]     
13:55 < waxwing> i'll read this in more detail later though (not least because an attempt to do cs++ properly!)
13:55 -!- puddinpop [~puddinpop@unaffiliated/puddinpop] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]     
13:55 < raedah> yeah, same denomination at same time (5min blocks) with high volume, 50% of coins participate in the staking system. 
13:56 < adlai> raedah: do you want stupid questions? (I read this kind of content very, very, slowly, so you will get an infintesimal amount of questions if you want to wait for my smart ones)
13:56 -!- puddinpop [~puddinpop@unaffiliated/puddinpop] has joined #joinmarket     
13:56 -!- Giszmo [~leo@2407:7000:9d28:5100:8de1:da9d:15e7:2581] has joined #joinmarket     
13:57 < adlai> high-level summary of my stupid questions: what's the effect of encouraging stakeholder anonymization on the "anything-at-stake?" question
13:57 < raedah> yeah, definitely want to know what you guys think, and ill be posting later that much of the design for this came from my experiences coding and learning on joinmarket
14:01 < raedah> also an fyi, not wanting to poach, but I do have access to funding proposals
14:01 < raedah> adlai: do you mean nothing-at-stake?
14:02  * adlai was about to mumble something about how much of the unimplemented ideas for joinmarket could benefit from your training and expertise implementing other stuff
14:03 < adlai> i'm not quite invoking nothing-at-stake, since i have no idea what decred is, beyond the mentions that you've made, so it might not be a costlessly-simulable system.
14:04 < adlai> the "anything-at-stake?" question is a generalization of the concept behind nothing-at-stake, to encompass the situation wherein a prospective investor asks a promoter to make claims regarding the difficulty of simulating certain amounts of history
14:04  * waxwing just forgot for literally the 100th time the difference between witnessScript and scriptWitness
14:06 < adlai> isn't that why things like sticky notes exist?
14:06 < raedah> no immediate downside to it, just a coinjoin onchain. single coordinating server used and blinded with dicemix, connected to over tor. change mixing may be able to be improved as currently its downmixing different sizes and creates excess onchain transactions. I have a few ideas on how it can be improved.
14:08 < adlai> my question is not about the technicalities of the privacy improvement, it's about the incentive modulation claim made early on in the post
14:08 < adlai> Per the... governance system... stakeholders gain anonymity and they simultaneously create a substantial background volume against which they and non-stakeholders can mix regular transactions.
14:09 < adlai> that bit.
14:10 < adlai> hinging participation in a privacy improvement system, upon membership in the governance set, is... brave?
14:12 -!- raedah [~x@192.30.89.51] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]     
14:12 -!- raedah [~x@192.30.89.51] has joined #joinmarket     
14:12 < raedah> damn vpn
14:15 < raedah> re anything-at-stake, could say its proof of sacrifice ...giving up opportunity cost on coins for ~30 days to participate. hybrid PoW/PoS makes history roll backs impossible, as well as blocks majority mining attacks.
14:16 < raedah> coin locking ~30 days
14:17 < adlai> ideally, this conversation could be unlinked from promotions of a single specific stake system :)
14:19 < raedah> ideally, but its the staking system itself the solves the problem of coincidence that made it all possible. joinmarket tried to incentivise participants with fees to increase mix volume. decred happened to have 50% of its coins turning over through same denominations on a monthly basis.
14:20  * adlai read correctly that ~10% of the monetary base is being thawed for funding these privacy improvements?
14:21 < adlai> oh this is from last year's roadmap. nvm.
14:22  * adlai computed correctly, misread a digit!
14:22 < raedah> 10% of block rewards is treasury. treasury is controlled by stake holder voting and funds all development including privacy work. ~$20m  https://proposals.decred.org/ 
14:25  * adlai henceforth avoids this issue, being too unfamiliar with the stake system in question to decouple his question from the technical aspects of the privacy improvement
14:32 < raedah> as far as the coinjoins themselves, can actually save some space onchain with combined schnorr signatures
15:11 -!- davex_ [~user@45.74.60.132] has joined #joinmarket     
16:15 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]     
17:13 -!- AgoraRelay [~jmrelayfn@p5DE4AA21.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]     
17:13 -!- CgRelayBot [~CgRelayBo@p5DE4AA21.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]     
17:25 < waxwing> arubi, updated, give it a read through if you can bear it, decent chance there's some errors lurking still
17:25 -!- CgRelayBot [~CgRelayBo@p5DE4ABFB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #joinmarket     
17:27 -!- AgoraRelay [~jmrelayfn@p5DE4ABFB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #joinmarket     
20:40 < arubi> waxwing, sure, will be doing that today
23:59 -!- MaxSan [~four@185.156.175.171] has joined #joinmarket