--- Day changed Fri Nov 15 2019
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04:24 < belcher> https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/snicker-how-alice-and-bob-can-mix-bitcoin-with-no-interaction
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07:37 < thunderstruck> Hey, joinmarket has a debug.log file correct? where is it stored?
07:45 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] it does not have such a file. But check the scripts/logs subdirectory
07:49 < simon_> after a couple of month running a yield generator i haven't had any order match... this is really puzzling since there seems to be a least one joinmarket order per day matching what I do offer
07:51 < simon_> everything else is running without issue, that is: sendpayment, ob-watcher, joinmarketd and jmtxfinder
07:52 < simon_> i even switched to another computer running another node behind another network but without success either 
07:55 < simon_> can it be that my utxos are too small ?
07:57 < takinbo> simon_: what jm version are you running?
07:58 < simon_> from what I notice, 1 mBTC or 1 000 000 sat should be a practical lower limit to get one order filled every two days or so...
07:59 < takinbo> you also want to compare your offers with that of others?
08:00 < simon_> takinbo, i'm running 0.5.5
08:00 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] 0.01 btc indeed should be enough for an occasional join
08:00 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] maybe you charge too much for cj fees?
08:02 < simon_> AlexCato, I have the same view on minimal size and my offer are an order of magnitude above. Fee wise, I'm on the lower range of what is offered, I have been constantly decreasing since two month and my offer are close to null fee now
08:03 < belcher> have you tried doing a coinjoin with yourself using sendpayment -P ?
08:03 < simon_> takinbo, if i compare to the orderbook, my offers are competitive...
08:05 < simon_> belcher, no I haven't tried that... I guess I should split fund in two wallets, one for maker, the other for taker, right?
08:05 < belcher> yes, and i think they have to be two seperate joinmarket folders
08:07 < simon_> good one, i will try that one separate machine/network see if i can get it to work
08:13 < thunderstruck> Agorarelay, thanks for the info :0
08:14 < thunderstruck> err *Alexcato
08:29 < thunderstruck> new to all this, is there a reason to run joinmarketd.py ? How do we confirm that the wallet is actually running when using cli? 
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08:36 < simon_> i personally run joinmarketd.py separately only to boot up joinmarket in a docker container - it allows to start a process which will keep the container running
08:44 < thunderstruck> simon, okay so joinmarketd.py does actually lauch joinmarket? so i could launch that in a seprate tmux session? and launch another tmux session to run my scripts/yield gen?
08:51 < joinmarketuser> If I wanted to increase the anonimity for a tumble should I increase number of counterparties or mixdepths or both? Which would be better? any difference between increasing the mixdepths vs transactions per mix depths?
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09:02 < belcher> joinmarketuser id say increasing number of counterparties would do more
09:03 < belcher> this blog post touches on that https://gist.github.com/chris-belcher/7e92810f07328fdfdef2ce444aad0968#increase-the-number-of-coinjoin-counterparties
09:03 < belcher> if you're interested you should try running the pull request for the improvements to tumbler https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/pull/387
09:04 < belcher> also, is there some reason you believe tumbler isnt anonymous enough by default
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09:18 < joinmarketuser1> belcher sorry got disconnected didnt see if you replied after my last message
09:18 < belcher> i didnt see your last message
09:18 < joinmarketuser1>  Thank you I will read those now
09:18 < joinmarketuser1>  Is there some measure of anonymous enough? If you have the time and the funds why not increase the anonymity?
09:19 < belcher> last thing i saw was my own message "also, is there.."
09:19 < belcher> ah ok
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09:21 < belcher> these systems seem really hard to analyse so its hard to say what anonymous enough means
09:24 < joinmarketuser1> I'm trying to understand this "Starting sweep coinjoins of every mixdepth" - one question to start, does the tumbler always sweep mix depths before it starts tumbling, even before this PR?
09:25 < joinmarketuser1> like if there are 3 inputs in mix depth 0, the current tumbler will start by sweeping them?
09:28 < belcher> joinmarketuser1 no it doesnt before this PR
09:29 < joinmarketuser1> I see - what is the purpose of the sweep then? - im still reading the PR comments ...
09:31 < joinmarketuser1> seems like a waste of an on chain transaction - why not just include those inputs directly into the following tumble transaction directly rather than sweeping them into a single uxto? im sure im misunderstanding something
09:31 < belcher> non-sweep coinjoins easily reveal the change address, so using sweep coinjoins can be used to avoid that leak
09:32 < belcher> admittedly every mixdepth has a final sweep coinjoin at the end, waxwing brought up this point, so having the initial sweep coinjoins is equivalent to having one more mixdepth without much cost in block space
09:32 < joinmarketuser1> oh you mean a sweep coinjoin - i thought it meant a sweep of all addresses in a non cj transaction. 
09:33 < belcher> oh, definitely not
09:33 < belcher> its all coinjoins, tumbler never creates non-coinjoin transactions
09:35 < joinmarketuser1> I saw something about sending to different mix depths to keep sources separate? will that be the recommended approach with the new tumbler?
09:35 < belcher> the sweeps would never happen using inputs from different mixdepths
09:35 < belcher> so coins sent to different mixdepths will still be seperate
09:35 < joinmarketuser1> will the coins sent to a higher mix depth go through less mixing
09:35 < belcher> yep     
09:36 < belcher> thats the same as in tumbler today before this PR
09:36 < joinmarketuser1> oh wait, so coins from mix depth 2 move to mix depth 3 before mix depth 1 moves to 2? they dont even combine while tumbling?
09:36 < sturles> related: Would it be possible to just use the yield generator to slowly move an entire wallet to a list of new addresses (xpub)?
09:36 < joinmarketuser1> I always thought coins from 1 move to 2, and if there is anything in 2 they all get mixed together and move to 3
09:38 < belcher> joinmarketuser1 so lets say mixdepth 0 and 1 both have coins in them, in the PR the algorithm would be to sweep mixdepth 1 into mixdepth 2, then sweep mixdepth 0 into mixdepth 1, then start the regular tumbler algorithm of random-amount coinjoins starting from mixdepth 1
09:38 < belcher> so the coins which started off in mixdepth 1 would still be mixed with the coins from mixdepth 0, eventually
09:39 < joinmarketuser1> they would move into mix depth 3 together?
09:39 < belcher> yes     
09:40 < joinmarketuser1> thank you
09:40 < joinmarketuser1> is the tumbler.py in that PR ready for use? would you recommend i use it instead of the published one
09:42 < joinmarketuser1> im not worried about errors or failing just anonymity. ill be happy to report any errors or issues here as long as i can feel comfortable there is no privacy issues with it
09:42 < belcher> yes its ready to use, the code is all written but its still being reviewed and tested so its not merged into the master branch yet
09:42 < belcher> iv tested it quite a lot myself on regtest, but never on bitcoin mainnet
09:43 < belcher> i cant see how there would be any privacy issues from using it
09:43 < joinmarketuser1> thank you. i guess i can just download the tumbler.py from it no other files needed?
09:44 < belcher> no it edits other joinmarket files, schedule.py taker.py and so on
09:44 < belcher> you can it from here https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/archive/tumbler-improve.zip
09:45 < belcher> to get that i went to the joinmarket github and changed the branch from "master" to "tumbler-improve", then there is a link for downloading the zip of that branch
09:46 < joinmarketuser1> hmm ok just figuring out how ill use it. The issue is that the install of joinmarket puts a lot of hard coded paths in places so I cant just copy my install and use it. I guess I can back it up and overwrite the files from this
09:46 < joinmarketuser1> it would be nice if the joinmarket install was more portable 
09:47 < belcher> another thing you can do it is use git
09:48 < belcher> download joinmarket using git and then you can switch from the "master" branch to the "tumbler-improve" branch
09:48 < belcher> ill tell you the commands if thats what you want to try instead
09:49 < joinmarketuser1> It would be nice to have two ore more folders with joinmarket by just copying without having to run the install again. I would use that for other thing like keeping a folder for yield generator and another for tumble 
09:54 < joinmarketuser1> I guess ill just run the install.sh from the new folder, that should do it I think. but it would be nice if it used relative paths instead of hardcoding paths - that way after an install the folder would be portable and copyable withoyt running install.sh again in the new location
09:54 < belcher> i agree i guess
09:55 < belcher> install.sh isnt really my area of expertise im afraid
09:55 < belcher> maybe its worth putting some time in to learn it
09:56 < joinmarketuser1> belcher are you being funded by donations? doing this for free?
10:14 < belcher> funded by donations yes
10:14 < belcher> joinmarketuser1 ^
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13:55 < qubenix> i think we can use `virtualenv --relocatable jmvenev` to fix the paths. can probably be added to install.sh.
13:55 < qubenix> jmvenv*
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14:56 < technonerd> i dont have to enter in my password in twice anymore with wallet-tool
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16:06 < thunderstruck> hey guys, looks like i got the YG going - if i show up in joinmarket online orderbook, I can assume that it's running and waiting for cj?
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16:32 < technonerd> you can also check the the logs in scripts/logs/ it should show the irc connections and priv/pub msg but showing up in the orderbook is a good sign its working
16:41 < thunderstruck> technonerd, awesome, thanks for the info
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19:52 < grubles> is there a channel for SNICKER? #joinmarket-dev maybe?
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22:36 < CgRelayBot> [cgan/zeep] hi, anyone still active?
23:15 < belcher> grubles here would be the best place for snicker
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