--- Day changed Wed Dec 04 2019
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00:33 < sevensidedcube> hi. so a big difference between JoinMarket and Wassabi is that in JoinMarket the maker can make a fee, while in Wassabi nopara&crew are making some money offering the service.
00:34 < sevensidedcube> what do you think? what kind of conjoin models will we be seeing more of in the future?
00:35 < sevensidedcube> more similar to joinmarket or wassabi?
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01:15 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] i see the big difference more in the amount of BTC you can tumble. In JM that's up to hundreds of BTC at the same time, while you're forced to use way smaller amounts in Wasabi.
01:16 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] also joinmarket is a lot cheaper to use for the end-user, as the competition between the makers drives coinjoni fees in joinmarket to 0
01:17 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] while wasabi has a monopoly on the fees, so they will probably stay the way they are there
01:17 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] last point: wasabi is easier to use. Joinmarket still has some way to go and currently isnt easy to set up
01:17 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] at least from scratch, as it also requires a working & running bitcoin core
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09:31 < belcher> wasabi degrades the divisibility of bitcoin for its users, yes fungibility is a necessary property of money but so is divisibility, unfortunately thats inherent in the way wasabi works with how coinjoin amounts are fixed at being around 0.1btc
09:33 < belcher> users with large amounts should be careful because if demand for block space goes up again they might end up getting rekt by miner fees when merging all those 0.1btc utxos
09:34 < belcher> but because of how wasabi works it has a strong incentive to get as many people as possible to use their wallet
09:34 < belcher> i think theres a place for both kinds
09:35 < belcher> if as planned fidelity bonds for sybil resistance get added to joinmarket then coinjoin fees might go up
09:36 < belcher> though that would all be market based, takers would get the amount of sybil resistance they pay for... so a taker could always choose a very low fee and coinjoin with anyone not caring if all the makers are run by the same person (and maybe that doesnt matter in the taker's threat model)
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10:24 < SourDoughB> When I sort the JM orderbook by fees (from low to high), there are a bunch of orders that have their (absolute) fees either 0 or very close to it. If my maker order is somewhere further down the list in terms of fees, does this mean that the taker's script will first use those orders on top of the list before it can get down to mine (assuming that
10:24 < SourDoughB> the taker's desired amount is within all the orders' ranges)? Or is there something else that might make my order more desirable for a taker, even if it is slightly more expensive? 
10:26 < belcher> the taker chooses randomly
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10:27 < belcher> it discards all offers more expensive than its willing to pay, and chooses the rest randomly
10:27 < belcher> theres nothing you can do to make your offer be more attractive except be lucky :P
10:31 < SourDoughB> uhhh that plays nicely into my gambling disposition XD 
10:32 < SourDoughB> Doesn't that incentivize creating more offers, kinda "sybil attacking" the order book in order to increase the fee revenue?
10:33 < belcher> yes     
10:33 < belcher> unfortunately
10:33 < belcher> but theres the plan to add fidelity bonds to joinmarket to solve that
10:33 < belcher> read the idea here the distance from mouse to computer is maybe 1 meter, information in 
10:33 < belcher> err whoops, clipboard fail
10:33 < belcher> https://gist.github.com/chris-belcher/18ea0e6acdb885a2bfbdee43dcd6b5af/
10:43 < SourDoughB> Thanks, very interesting. As a maker, locking up coins in a cold wallet does seem agreeable, if this helps with sybil-resistance and higher fee revenue, especially if those coins are not planned to be used anyway
10:51 < belcher> yeah its good for hodlers/makers, question is whether takers will go for the higher fees, i think they will because cj fees are low today, also takers would always have a choice
10:58 < SourDoughB> yeah this would make sense to me as well... the cj fees are indeed quite low
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11:59 < SourDoughB> After a few days playing around with JM, I really wish there was some kind of light, easy to install, friendly GUI for the takers (Tumbler), perhaps even some kind of integration with one of the current major wallets (I think I read something about a script for Electrum in older posts?). It seems like lots of people are interested in coinjoining
11:59 < SourDoughB> and would gladly pay the fees even if they were a good bit higher, but are kinda afraid of the command line interfaces (even though there’s a JM QT, the set up is still over command line). 
11:59 < SourDoughB> If more “normie” takers would come in, the demand for maker liquidity increases and makers are already more incentivized financially to put in the effort of command line set ups etc. Bringing in more takers by providing them with a friendly GUI without command line setups would make JM grow further and improve the sybil resistance along the
11:59 < SourDoughB> way. 
11:59 < SourDoughB> But I guess there are technical reasons (necessity for own node, not trusting automated installation files etc) for not having such smooth UIs like Wasabi/Samourai? 
12:00 < SourDoughB> (sorry for the “I just learned about JM and am here to fix it” rambling :D not meaning to come across demanding in any way! Love JM so far <3  )
12:01 < belcher> yeah there have been thoughts about using client side block filtering
12:01 < belcher> but those filters all together are still 4gb, somewhat stretching the definition of "lightweight wallet"
12:02 < belcher> i believe wasabi gets around it because they only use bech32 addresses, and as those addresses are rare on the blockchain (for now) the filters are much smaller
12:02 < belcher> in terms of other non-smoothness in the UI, PRs and bug reports welcome :)
12:07 < SourDoughB> Sorry, "non-smoothness" was not the correct choice of words on my side :)  everything runs very smooth so far! Meant more like "easy installation" :) 
12:11 < belcher> yeah thats an issue, people seem allergic to CLI even when its just one line
12:11 < belcher> i guess for windows we could have a batch script which just runs that one line (disclaimer: not a windows expert)
12:12 < belcher> maybe a bigger issue is full nodes
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12:13 < kristapsk> batch script will not help for Windows right now, as our current recommended way for using JM under Windows is to install Ubuntu on Windows 10 under Windows Subsystem for Linux
12:34 < qubenix> slivera: listened to your ergobtc pod today. do you really think people don't keep a significant amount of btc in joinmarket 24/7?
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13:43 < waxwing> belcher, i guess even on linux it could be made one-click. like the appimage thing. electrum uses that.
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16:26 < kristapsk> anyone remembers what was the reasoning of removing GPG singature validation from install.sh in https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/pull/228? (there is unused no_gpg_validation='' still left in code, btw)
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