--- Day changed Fri Dec 06 2019
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01:59 < SourDoughB> > JoinMarket makers are expected to have JoinMarket past and JoinMarket future history.
01:59 < SourDoughB> Could someone please briefly explain why that is? What history does a Maker need to know besides his own?
02:00 < SourDoughB> Context: https://github.com/zkSNACKs/Meta/issues/5#issuecomment-562253816
02:04 < belcher> a single joinmarket coinjoin on its own does not provide perfect privacy
02:05 < belcher> because of the coinjoin fees its often possible to cluster together inputs and change addresses as belonging to one peer (either maker or taker)
02:05 < belcher> so joinmarket's privacy comes from repeated coinjoins
02:05 < belcher> maybe thats what he means
02:07 < belcher> but in reality joinmarket will probably never come to wasabi because the incentives arent right, wasabi makes money from their centralized coinjoin and they need it to pay developers salaries and keep their company running, the incentives say they'll only work on things that help that aim
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02:10 < SourDoughB> Wouldn't Wasabi also profit if JM integration brings more liquidity/people in? F.ex people who then could mix lower amounts than the current Wasabi minimum.. Or Wasabi could slap extra fees on top of JM fees (which seem so low that users probably would accept them too)
02:12 < belcher> yes it would bring in more users but they'd all use joinmarket not wasabi (because you dont have to wait and you can make transactions of any size not just 0.1 btc)
02:12 < belcher> i dont think its possible to add an extra fee to JM, because wallets are necessarily open source so someone could just make a fork which removes the fee
02:13 < belcher> the reason wasabi today has a fee is because it runs on this centralized server, if your own wallet doesnt add a fee then that server wont approve your transaction
02:20 < waxwing> https://x0f.org/web/statuses/103260331327477669
02:21 < waxwing> oh a relevant comment from kristapsk there, seems we are all thinking about similar things :) https://github.com/zkSNACKs/Meta/issues/5#issuecomment-562258374
02:22 < belcher> that might not be incentive compatible, iv always imagined yieldgenerator users as basically hodlers, why would they put their coins somewhere else in a spending wallet
02:22 < waxwing> if anyone wants to do maker-in-gui -- you might be surprised how easy it is! the wallet will just update on its own. just put one dialog with the fee parameters, click 'run' and have it go
02:22 < belcher> but on the other hand even if a small amount of people use that feature it would help
02:22 < waxwing> why would it not be incentive compatible? i don't get it
02:23 < SourDoughB> I guess this is technically naive question, but wouldn't it be possible to integrate JM orderbook into Wasabi mixing rounds directly? So f.ex a user has only 0.05 btc to mix (which is below the minimum amount), so in order to queue Wasabi adds the lacking 0.05 from a JM maker (while the Wasabi user pays the JM fees). This way it's not possible to
02:23 < SourDoughB> fork Wasabi since it still relies on the centralized server. 
02:23 < belcher> im guessing most of the money in yieldgeneators would otherwise just be sitting in cold storage somewhere, the reason its in a yieldgenerator is because it earns an income, like having money in a bank account which gives you interest... so why would those hodlers want to transfer their money somewhere else
02:24 < waxwing> belcher, the use case would be mainly those who are occasionally spending coins, yeah. but i could imagine people liking the idea who want to move stuff out to a cold wallet and don't want to have to interact with the process. maybe.
02:24 < waxwing> and it would be almost spectacularly simple to code ....
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02:25 < waxwing> it would also serve the purpose of breaking the "trace the taker" technique in a way that didn't involve hassle. i think.
02:25 < belcher> if even a small amount of people use it then i guess it would be worth it, my comment about the incentives is just that i think not many will use it
02:25 < waxwing> that's fair, although we don't know for sure.
02:25 < belcher> note that the patientsendpayment script has been missing from joinmarket for more than 2 years and afaik nobody even noticed (i dont remember any comments)
02:26 < belcher> patientsendpayment is basically that right? being a maker for the purpose of transacting rather than earning fees
02:26 < waxwing> i guess people who send payments aren't patient :)
02:26 < waxwing> yeah this seems like the same idea but starting from the other end of the spectrum right
02:26 < waxwing> no concept of a specific payment intended, but it's really the same thing i guess
02:26 < belcher> yep, the incentives arent there... someone using patientsendpayment must really value their time low if they trade a couple of hours to save maybe 200 satoshi
02:27 < belcher> thats because the hodlers who run yieldgenerators have outcompeted them, and brought the price down to that low
02:28 < belcher> if coinjoin fees were more like 100000 satoshi i bet lots people would use patientsendpayment or similar, but because of the massive supply of hodl'd coins in cold storage the price will never get that high
02:28 < waxwing> and that's not because of zero value but because ygs get a lot of non-monetary compensation. the tradeoffs just mean they're happy with low prices.
02:29 < belcher> i dont mean to discourage you, especially if as you say its very simple to code
02:29 < belcher> i reckon a better way of solving the problem of single coinjoins not being private enough is joinmarket with off-chain fees
02:29 < waxwing> right good point.
02:29 < waxwing> that would not be spectacularly simple to code :) if we ever figured out how to code it at all.
02:29 < waxwing> but obviously it's kind of "the" right way to do joinmarket unless the tradeoffs are horrible.
02:30  * waxwing afk
02:30 < belcher> for any lurkers: https://gist.github.com/chris-belcher/c8219fe6283b8f97116aeccaf1190c07
02:30 < belcher> JoinMarket with off-chain fees
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04:04 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] this is ready to be merged in the custom-scripts repo: https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/custom-scripts/pull/6 @waxwing . Tested it as well. I thought I had commit rights in that repo, but seems I remember that wrong. Could you merge it?
04:09 < belcher> i can merge it alexcato
04:09 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/AlexCato] great :)
04:12 < belcher> done
04:24 < belcher> testers and reviews consider trying out PR #444, its a new way to synchronize a wallet by scanning the utxo set, its meant for the situation that if you have a seed phrase backup somewhere and you want to check whether there's money on it, you could use this new method to sync the wallet within 5 minutes by scanning the utxo set, it doesnt need any long blockchain rescans and even works with pruning
04:26 < belcher> its quite easy to try out if you have an already-sync'd full node
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07:19 < waxwing> comments in config file are still pointing to this: https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket/wiki/Running-JoinMarket-with-Bitcoin-Core-full-node which says Core v0.10 or above and still has the walletnotify instructions
07:20 < waxwing> i'll take the still relevant parts and add them into docs/ and update
07:22 < waxwing> actually basically everything there is not applicable, except for a few parts which we have written in the usage guide. best would be to just delete that article i think.
07:31 < waxwing> removed reference, also reference to electrum-server which is no longer available
08:00 < belcher> wow that article is old
08:35 < waxwing> if anyone knows what might be the significance of the MacOS build failing here: https://travis-ci.org/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/builds/619055871?utm_source=github_status&utm_medium=notification i'd like to know
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