--- Log opened Tue Feb 11 00:00:40 2020 00:08 -!- Royce58Lind [~Royce58Li@ns334669.ip-5-196-64.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:09 -!- jungly [~jungly@host243-191-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:09 -!- jungly_ [~jungly@host243-191-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #joinmarket 00:29 -!- coconutanna [~coconutan@gateway/tor-sasl/coconutanna] has joined #joinmarket 01:28 -!- takamatsu [takamatsu@unaffiliated/takamatsu] has joined #joinmarket 02:27 -!- jcoe [seru@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/joncoe] has joined #joinmarket 03:04 -!- Torrey21Feeney [~Torrey21F@ns334669.ip-5-196-64.eu] has joined #joinmarket 04:14 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 04:30 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:34 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has joined #joinmarket 04:49 -!- opal [~wowaname@volatile/founder/wowaname] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:49 -!- opal [~wowaname@volatile/founder/wowaname] has joined #joinmarket 05:14 -!- takamatsu [takamatsu@unaffiliated/takamatsu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:24 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #joinmarket 05:37 -!- takamatsu [takamatsu@unaffiliated/takamatsu] has joined #joinmarket 06:05 -!- Torrey21Feeney [~Torrey21F@ns334669.ip-5-196-64.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:09 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #joinmarket 06:29 -!- takamatsu [takamatsu@unaffiliated/takamatsu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:56 -!- KongKing_ [55c3de51@85.195.222.81] has joined #joinmarket 07:11 -!- takamatsu [~takamatsu@unaffiliated/takamatsu] has joined #joinmarket 07:11 -!- Guest57617 [~stoner19@vmi221374.contaboserver.net] has quit [Quit: keep on keepin' on...] 07:11 -!- stoner19 [~stoner19@vmi221374.contaboserver.net] has joined #joinmarket 07:12 -!- stoner19 is now known as Guest32287 07:13 -!- Guest32287 [~stoner19@vmi221374.contaboserver.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] --- Log closed Tue Feb 11 07:32:13 2020 --- Log opened Tue Feb 11 07:32:13 2020 07:45 < KongKing_> So, I am running the yg, and at some point a cj happended, which took utxos from depth 4, and then the coinjoin coming out of it was sent to an address of depth 1. That doesn't make any sense! Has someone had a similar experience? 07:57 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:58 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #joinmarket 07:59 -!- stoner19 [~stoner19@vmi221374.contaboserver.net] has joined #joinmarket 08:00 -!- stoner19 is now known as Guest59463 08:04 < belcher> you're right, it shouldve sent them to mixdepth 0 08:04 < belcher> maybe actually two coinjoins happened? run wallet-tool in history mode to check 08:06 < waxwing> it might depend on which yg you're running. afair they all do the "mixdepth + 1 % num mixdepths" thing, but i could be wrong. (also it technically should be a problem, at all, that that happened. but still, nice to actually understand it!) 08:08 < waxwing> belcher, others: you might be interested in recent discussion about podle in lightning tx construction, i added my thoughts on what's being discussed here: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2020-February/002522.html 08:08 < waxwing> niftynei raised a very interesting point about how the commitment is transferrable so there's quite a lot to think about there ... 08:09 < belcher> ty waxwing 08:09 < belcher> is this for dual-funded channels? 08:09 < waxwing> as per email in JM it kinda-sorta isn't an issue (except nothing is really watertight), but it's a huge issue if you try to reapply it in a LN situation 08:09 < waxwing> yeah. although maybe they're also thinking about multiparty too. 08:11 < waxwing> i'm gonna merge that py2 deprecation now 08:11 < belcher> sounds good 08:15 -!- vrana [~mvranic@gateway/tor-sasl/vrana] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:15 -!- vrana [~mvranic@gateway/tor-sasl/vrana] has joined #joinmarket 08:21 < KongKing_> Oh, I'm sorry. It DID send the coins to mixdepth 0. But how does that make sense? Shouldn't it continue to mixdepth 5? 08:26 < waxwing> it's not very practical to just have your coins spreading out over an infinite number of accounts, so it's natural to stop somewhere. 08:41 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:42 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #joinmarket 08:43 < belcher> yieldgen only uses 5 mixdepths by default, when coins are sent from mixdepth 4 their destination is mixdepth 0 08:58 < KongKing_> got it. But it doesn't mean any loss of privacy right, in fact those coins are very well mixed, even if they appear on mixdepth 0 09:01 < belcher> whats your threat model? 09:01 < belcher> when you talk about privacy loss, are you thinking that a chain analyst will find... what exactly? 09:02 < belcher> the privacy loss, if there is any, depends on what is the privacy-relevant information in question 09:27 -!- opal [~wowaname@volatile/founder/wowaname] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:30 -!- k3tan [~ketan@unaffiliated/k3tan] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:30 -!- opal [~wowaname@volatile/founder/wowaname] has joined #joinmarket 09:31 -!- k3tan [~ketan@unaffiliated/k3tan] has joined #joinmarket 09:56 -!- jungly_ [~jungly@host243-191-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:57 -!- jungly [~jungly@host243-191-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #joinmarket 09:59 -!- jungly [~jungly@host243-191-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:59 -!- jungly_ [~jungly@host243-191-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #joinmarket 10:07 < KongKing_> All I'm saying is that the coins appear on mixdepth 0 while they actually have mixdepth 5. Which is very weird from a UX perspective 10:09 < waxwing> KongKing_, it's a problem or our naming; mixdepth is not an assertion of "level of mixing of these coins" at all; after a while the coins in *all* mixdepths will have gone through various different numbers of coinjoins (as a maker). mixdepths are just accounts (see bip32). 10:10 < KongKing_> aha okay, thanks for the explanation 10:10 < KongKing_> then everything is fine and as expected :-) 10:11 < waxwing> their main purpose is to make sure you don't reuse a coinjoined utxo with a non-coinjoined one, thus removing the effect of the join 10:12 < KongKing_> I have non-coinjoined coins on level 0 too though. So what you just explained could happen to someone who doesn't understand 10:12 < waxwing> sorry it's not exact, what i said: i mean you don't want to co-spend change outputs from a coinjoin, with (equal value) coinjoin outputs, of the same transaction. 10:13 < waxwing> that's what's prevented by making the equal-value coinjoin of the transaction, go to a different account/mixdepth. 10:13 < waxwing> because we only co-spend utxos from one single account, never co-spend utxos from different accounts. 10:18 < KongKing_> okay, no I've perfectly understood! Thank you for the explanation and keep up the good work 10:44 < belcher> mixdepth is a bad name for sure, i few weeks ago i grepped the source code with the aim to rename it, but something like 500 instances came up :| 10:58 -!- jungly_ [~jungly@host243-191-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:14 -!- jungly [~jungly@host243-191-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #joinmarket 11:17 -!- jungly [~jungly@host243-191-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:17 -!- jungly_ [~jungly@host243-191-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #joinmarket 11:19 -!- kristapsk [~KK@gateway/tor-sasl/kristapsk] has joined #joinmarket 11:27 -!- jungly_ [~jungly@host243-191-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:46 -!- vrana [~mvranic@gateway/tor-sasl/vrana] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:48 -!- vrana [~mvranic@gateway/tor-sasl/vrana] has joined #joinmarket 13:06 -!- avril [wha@ivana.humpalot.org] has joined #joinmarket 13:06 -!- avril [wha@ivana.humpalot.org] has quit [Changing host] 13:06 -!- avril [wha@unaffiliated/avril] has joined #joinmarket 13:15 -!- bsm1175321 [~mcelrath@2601:196:4902:25b0:f14a:e421:2d96:e145] has joined #joinmarket 13:15 -!- bsm1175321 [~mcelrath@2601:196:4902:25b0:f14a:e421:2d96:e145] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:21 -!- jungly [~jungly@host243-191-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #joinmarket 14:03 -!- deafboy [quasselcor@cicolina.org] has quit [Quit: deafboy] 14:03 -!- deafboy [quasselcor@cicolina.org] has joined #joinmarket 14:27 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/user] hi there was a branch or build called tumbler improve - has that been merged to the master 14:30 < kristapsk> user, yes, https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/pull/387, included also in last two releases (since 0.6.0) 14:30 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/user] also @belcher curious about your opinion on the current state of using lightening network for anonymity 14:30 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/user] thank you! 14:35 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/user] another q - any work done on making joinmarket portable? currently install.sh hardcodes the install path and if you copy the installed folder elsewhere it doesnt work - I like to have separate joinmarket folders for different wallets and it takes forever to install each one - would prefer to just make a copy of the folder after install 14:37 -!- jungly [~jungly@host243-191-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:44 -!- jungly [~jungly@host243-191-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #joinmarket 14:48 -!- jungly [~jungly@host243-191-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49 -!- jungly [~jungly@host243-191-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #joinmarket 14:53 -!- jungly [~jungly@host243-191-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:04 < belcher> you dont need a whole separate installation, you could just use seperate wallet files and possible separate joinmarket.cfg files 15:05 < belcher> my opinion on LN is mostly written here https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Privacy#Lightning_Network though theres some stuff missing, for example at the lightning conference a few months back there was one or two talks about privacy on LN which arent added to that wiki yet 15:09 -!- jcoe [seru@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/joncoe] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:23 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/user] @belcher - I don't want any cross contamination, with logs files, etc. I think running multiple yield generators or tumbles from the same directory could be a problem ... I dont know that you guys test for that I think separate folders is the safest bet. - anyway it would be useful to have it not hardcode paths, that might also allow it to be 15:23 < AgoraRelay> installed on thumbdrive 15:23 < belcher> what are you even trying to do? 15:23 < belcher> how do multiple yieldgens or tumblers running at the same time help 15:24 < belcher> user ^ 15:24 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/user] 1) completely separate funds that need to remain separate 2) also yieldgen for "cold" funds + regular wallet for every day funds 15:26 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/user] @belcher, ill read the article does it go into current state of ln for this purpose at all? from a really high level - in your opinion is ln ready for use for anonymity - how does it compare to jm 15:27 < belcher> for completely seperate funds you can put them in different mixdepths 15:27 < belcher> LN cant really pay to on-chain addresses, it can only be used to pay LN invoices 15:27 < belcher> so for on-chain you'd use JM i think 15:28 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/user] I mean what about for removing the link from A to B - how does going to LN and back to btc - today - compare to jm 15:30 < belcher> going back to on-chain with LN isnt easy, because of liquidity issues 15:56 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:09 -!- Guest59463 is now known as stoner19 16:09 -!- stoner19 [~stoner19@vmi221374.contaboserver.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:09 -!- stoner19 [~stoner19@unaffiliated/stoner19] has joined #joinmarket 16:15 -!- MaxSan [~four@185.156.175.171] has joined #joinmarket 17:07 -!- AgoraRelay [~jmrelayfn@p5DE4ABF9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:08 -!- CgRelayBot [~CgRelayBo@p5DE4ABF9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:18 -!- AgoraRelay [~jmrelayfn@p5DE4AB5E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #joinmarket 17:20 -!- CgRelayBot [~CgRelayBo@p5DE4AB5E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #joinmarket 17:43 < kristapsk> user, you can run multiple yg's from the same JM folder, just use different wallets 18:11 -!- Simpatico_21 [~r94659d@145.red-88-16-66.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has joined #joinmarket 18:11 -!- Simpatico_21 [~r94659d@145.red-88-16-66.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has left #joinmarket [] 21:04 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/user] I just think its dangerous if you dont want to mix the wallets. for example they could easily share a tumble file 21:33 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:25 -!- jungly [~jungly@host243-191-dynamic.1-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #joinmarket 23:50 -!- KongKing_ [55c3de51@85.195.222.81] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] --- Log closed Wed Feb 12 00:00:37 2020