--- Log opened Wed Feb 12 00:00:37 2020
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00:50 < kristapsk_> user, ahh, yes, I was talking about yield generator, not tumbler
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01:38 < phimic> hello all
01:39 < phimic> i am new to JoinMarket and try a SingleCoinJoin but i get the the following output
01:39 < phimic> "Taker not continuing after receipt of orderbook"
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02:14 < MaxSan> Hey, so I have a wallet but it cant detect anything on the bitcoind, its on prune mode but does it not check the UTXO set?
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02:51 < waxwing> MaxSan, that's a bit vague? ("it can't detect anything on the bitcoind"), you know about how rescan is needed if you take a joinmarket wallet onto a new Core instance right?
02:51 < waxwing> also there is a no-history mode in JM now that allows you to *read* a wallet without having the imports
02:51 < waxwing> (ie that does actually just use utxo set)
02:52 < waxwing> phimic, it's hard to say what the cause is.
02:52 < waxwing> one possibility is if you use a very small coinjoin amount, that no one is willing to do the coinjoin with you.
02:52 < waxwing> but look in the log in logs/ (or just on the command line) and see if there are any other messages before the "Taker not continuing..." message.
02:53 < waxwing> you could also set `console_log_level` to DEBUG in joinmarket.cfg before restarting to get more detailed information coming out on the command line (by default it's INFO which doesn't show all messages)
02:55 < phimic> waxwing: thank you, i will try DEBUG and check the messages
02:57 < waxwing> ok it's in section [LOGGING] in the joinmarket.cfg file
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03:06 < phimic> waxwing: i set to DEBUG but now loading the wallet takes time ...
03:08 < waxwing> wouldn't make a difference, it won't be connected to debug setting
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03:21 < phimic> waxwing: cannot open my wallet, password is OK and i get "Reading wallet from blockhain ..."  but it sucks at this point, no view of my balance
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03:37 < waxwing> phimic, sorry was out for a while
03:37 < waxwing> are you using Qt or command line?
03:40 < waxwing> duh, silly question, that message is only on Qt. what version of Joinmarket-Qt are you running? (you can check in 'About')
03:42 < waxwing> also, look at the command line where you started up joinmarket-qt to see if any errors appeared there, if it's just hanging (that certainly shouldn't happen, of course).
03:45 < MaxSan> Hmm I cant rescan on pruned mode
03:45 < MaxSan> Il need t reindex the entire chain
03:45 < MaxSan> to*
03:46 < waxwing> belcher, ^ you know about this stuff right? is that correct? (i did already point out no-history is available, but it doesn't address every use case, right)
03:47 < belcher> yes thats right, if you pruned the relevant blocks then you cant rescan them
03:47 < waxwing> oh so the nuance in that is "the *relevant* blocks" right?
03:47 < belcher> yes
03:48 < waxwing> so you could do rescanblockchain on a certain range and still be OK?
03:48 < belcher> yep
03:48 < belcher> you can use getblockchaininfo to tell you which is the first unpruned block, EPS also displays it
03:48 < belcher> but yes rescanning while pruning is enabled is a perpetual problem
03:49 < belcher> another option is also to rescan your wallet on an unpruned node and then transfer the wallet file back to your main pruned node
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03:49 < belcher> yet another option is to create a brand new wallet, which doesnt need rescanning, and then spend any coins in the old wallet using no-history mode
03:50 < MaxSan> I pretty sure that last 2GB included the TX of that value you though...
03:50 < MaxSan> which is even more strange
03:50 < MaxSan> guess il do that whole chain.. again. lol.
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03:52 < waxwing> yeah if i change Core instances i'm just going to sweep funds across mixdepth by mixdepth personally. not that other options aren't possible but they're a pain.
03:56 < belcher> or possibly import privkeys to avoid a on-chain tx
03:58 < waxwing> i hope people don't do that.
03:59 < waxwing> also a good chance to swap roles if you're a long time maker and thus make Joinmarket's obfuscation effect way better.
04:20 < phimic> waxwing: i am using joinmarket-qt. There are no errors in log output, only an debug entry "fast sync in progress. Got this many used addresses: 3"
04:25 < phimic> waxwing: i found this one: https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/issues/483
04:26 < MaxSan> 19h to sync, wonder what the bottleneck is.
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04:37 < phimic> waxwing: i think the problem is, that my bitcoin core wallet is encrypted with a password
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04:44 < waxwing> phimic, ah, that was noticed by one of us recently: https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/issues/483
04:45 < waxwing> i've never noticed it myself as i only have funds in the JM wallet so keys are only there. apparently this is related to us switching from using 'importaddress' to 'importmulti' but it does indeed seem to be an open issue.
04:45 < waxwing> i don't think kristapsk is here right now, otherwise he could comment
04:47 < phimic> waxwing: ok thank you, i try to create a new (unencrypted) wallet and send my coins there an try again with joinmarket-qt
04:50 < waxwing> phimic, just in case you didn't know, you can use rpc_wallet_file setting in [BLOCKCHAIN] to support another wallet in Core (maybe you already know, just in case)
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05:14 < phimic> waxwing: thanks for the info, which wallet types are supported?
05:17 < waxwing> just create a new wallet in Core with a setting in bitcoin.conf and/or argument to bitcoind , and then specify it in joinmarket.cfg. Joinmarket will add watch-only addresses to that wallet.
05:18 < waxwing> i'm not sure what you mean by 'type' in this context, maybe i missed something.
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06:05 < phimic> waxwing: is there a way to transfer coins from mixdepth-1 to mixdepth-0?
06:12 < waxwing> phimic, to transfer coins between mixdepths, use a coinjoin. mixdepths are separate accounts and then intention is to prevent them being deterministically linked.
06:24 < phimic> waxwing: but then i have to pay fees, right?
06:27 < waxwing> right. you can also transfer without coinjoin. it's quite difficult to pin down how strongly linked the coins are between the two accounts in that case. i guess i shouldn't overstate the negative effect.
06:27 < waxwing> using coinjoin gives a bigger and more sort of "solid" disassociation.
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07:32 < phimic> waxwing: i try to run a multiple coinmixer but i always getting "not enough counterpatries responded". I have choosed 3. 
07:33 < phimic> i checked https://joinmarket.me/ob/ an try to find out i i have to adjust max_cj_fee_abs and max_cj_fee_rel
07:33 < phimic> but i am not sure which values should be fine there
07:34 < waxwing> try say 10000 for *abs and 0.0002 for *rel
07:34 < waxwing> note that you'll choose randomly under the maximum so they'll almost all be small (most of the offers are very low fee)
07:35 < waxwing> yes if you used really low values like 10 sats there, it could block you from finding any counterparties. another way is if the amount of your coinjoin is too small.
07:36 < waxwing> i don't think people should try coinjoins less than 1 million sats, although you can succeed with say 200K sats or 500K sats. but at low values various problems happen.
07:36 < waxwing> most of all the onchain fees are a bit too high for those kind of values.
07:46 < phimic> waxwing: thanks for the explaination i try to adjust the fees in the section policy
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11:30 < kristapsk> belcher, waxwing, had an idea today, what do you think? https://gist.github.com/kristapsk/f339f05bc6810d0378510d8126899a72
11:32 < belcher> reading
11:34 < belcher> how is that different from the user querying the API themselves to obtain a bitcoin address and then giving that address to tumbler?
11:34 < belcher> for the LN applications the refund tx needs to be signed before the funding tx is broadcast, so theres that, but not for the hodlhodl multisig i think
11:37 < kristapsk> that' for creating channels, not for submarine swap services
11:38 < kristapsk> for submarine swaps, you send onchain tx to some address, service pays your LN invoice, both tx'es aren't otherwise related, as in services internal db / logs
11:40 < kristapsk> ahh, I forgot the part, that tumbler can send funds to some of the destination addresses in the middle of the tumbler run, so you will have similar effect, right?
11:40 < belcher> not in the middle of a run, at the end
11:40 < belcher> but yes they can go to any bitcoin address
11:40 < kristapsk> well, here idea was, that it will do that in a middle, with some random chance
11:40 < belcher> whats good about doing it in the middle not the end
11:41 < kristapsk> as the coins go elsewhere, and there aren't any links in a blockchain with destination
11:41 < kristapsk> so that some CJ in a middle of tumbler run will not look a CJ of a middle of tumbler run (all equally signed outputs go to another JM CJ eventually)
11:41 < kristapsk> equally sized (amounts), I mean
11:42 < belcher> i dont really see the privacy benefit
11:43 < belcher> from the point of view of a receiver of money from a coinjoin, they dont know whether it came from a tumbler, sendpayment or yieldgenerator
11:44 < belcher> well they know its not yieldgenerator, but it could be a yieldgenerator who made a sendpayment one time
11:50 < belcher> does joinmarket-qt tumbler support address ask? that feature where you can give tumbler just one or two addresses and for the remaining addresses it will ask the user
11:51 < belcher> its useful because it gives the user a chance to click "generate new deposit address", so they dont need to know all the addresses at the start
12:29 < waxwing> belcher, unfortunately no it was never implemented
12:29 < waxwing> should have added it to Issues somewhere, come to think of it
12:29 < waxwing> kristapsk, thanks, will take a look shortly (and read the above ^)
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12:37 < kristapsk> difference between (running yg) -> (sendpayment) -> (running yg) is that change outputs can be identified because of fees, for tumbler you are taker, but that itself does not add much privacy, of course
12:37 < kristapsk> btw, talking about cj fees
12:38 < kristapsk> had another idea today - how about different maker choosing algo, that would sometimes try to have some 2 or 3 makers with the identical fees, that would result for a little anonimity set for change outputs of these makers too
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12:39 < kristapsk> like do as it is now, just in some random cases after choosing maker, look at orderbook, isn't there another maker with the same fee
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13:28 < belcher> thats not a bad thought kristapsk, maybe the fees could be quantized
13:29 < belcher> i.e. makers can choose fees of 0.01% or 0.05% but nothing in between
13:29 < belcher> an old issue about quantizing fees https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket/issues/14#issuecomment-143509788
13:30 < belcher> regarding finding the taker's inputs and change, malte mosor in his paper only managed to find the taker's inputs about 2/3 of the time, and that was before when coinjoins used fewer makers (2-3 compared to 6-7 today) so it should be harder now, see https://gist.github.com/chris-belcher/7e92810f07328fdfdef2ce444aad0968#appendix
13:32 < belcher> this other guy who did it managed 24% of txes fully unmixed https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1609980.0
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14:02 < kristapsk> will look at these more carefullay
14:03 < kristapsk> actually, I have starred that jm_unmixer in github some time ago and then forgot about it :)
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14:57 < belcher> there is also this idea for fixing it, even if its kind of complicated https://gist.github.com/chris-belcher/c8219fe6283b8f97116aeccaf1190c07
14:58 < kristapsk> that one I remember reading
15:02 < belcher> so it would need a chaumian ecash server, someone to run it and not steal the money, get takers to deposit coins on it before they do coinjoins, get makers to withdraw from it... its pretty complicated IMO
15:03 < belcher> i reckon long term a better solution for on-chain privacy is coinswaps, if they can be made to work... coinswaps shouldnt have this problem of on-chain fees and also solve a few other joinmarket problems
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15:14 < kristapsk> that "chaumian ecash server, someone to run it and not steal the money" part is what I don't like there
15:15 < belcher> yep
15:16 < kristapsk> involving LN somehow is what I would like to see in future, but I'm not studied it enough, not sure can it be done trustless way
15:17 < kristapsk> submarine swaps (BTC -> LNBTC and vice versa) are possible that way, but that involes two onchain tx'es, with HTLC escrow, AFAIK
15:18 < kristapsk> maybe Liquid sidechain could be used too, but haven't looked at it much
15:18 < belcher> the hard part is making a transaction only go through if a certain other transaction gets confirmed, and make the transaction be refunded if any of the inputs to the other transaction get spent somewhere else
15:19 < belcher> and the two transactions cant be linked together, the fact that they're linked together right now is the cause of the problem
15:20 < belcher> tbh the amounts of money wouldnt be very large to be worth stealing, how much are joinmarket fees anyway? cant be more than few tens of thousands of satoshi per month
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21:16 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/user] according to the notes txfee_default was removed but I still see it in the gui in 0,6.1
21:17 < AgoraRelay> [agora-irc/user] I made single payment with the gui, the fee was very low and it took over 24 hours to confirm - which setting do I change to increase the fee for making a single payment with no counterparties
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--- Log closed Thu Feb 13 00:00:39 2020