--- Log opened Tue Mar 17 00:00:24 2020
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03:22 < waxwing> i had exactly the same issue trying out a fresh install the other day: autoreconf not found. it was ubuntu1604.
03:22 < waxwing> k3tan, great
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07:54 < waxwing> so am I right in saying that python3.6 is basically unavailable for ubuntu 16.04? and that that is likely to be an issue if we require it?
07:55 < belcher> i can use it, but not via `python3` which i didnt manage to make work, but by `python3.6`
07:55 < belcher> i run xubunutu
07:57 < belcher> id argue it should be really really really really worth it before we require python 3.6, because it would add yet another barrier to installing/using
07:59 < waxwing> sure, it isn't desirable .. i was specifically asking about whether it was available at all, i only just realised (well, remembered: i encountered this a long time ago) that it isn't available on 1604. i asked about this a week or two back.
07:59 < waxwing> but i think people were saying maybe it was only an issue for old debian (debian stable?). but if 1604 as well it would be hard to argue that it's acceptable i think.
08:03 < coconutanna-> waxwing, debian stable has 3.7 but oldstable is at 3.5.
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08:05 < waxwing> yeah we were discussing it on this day: http://gnusha.org/joinmarket/2020-03-08.log
08:06 < waxwing> not sure what to do about it tbh. this is kind of a blocker for me moving forward with some other things, in particular adding SNICKER.
08:06 < belcher> why is it a blocker?
08:06 < waxwing> also i think the overall elements of the changes in #536 ought to be worth it (it's a big complexity reduction), but as of right now i can't just change it to python-bitcoinlib since that doesn't support segwit
08:06 < waxwing> belcher, mainly psbt
08:07 < waxwing> but there are other things that pure function; as i've noted before, things just got messy and it stops people from even wanting to contribute.
08:07 < belcher> oh right so python-bitcoinlib supports psbt
08:07 < belcher> hmm
08:07 < waxwing> that mess really needs cleaning  up, and i've done it
08:07 < belcher> is there a way you can build snicker separately from joinmarket
08:07 < waxwing> no python-bitcointx supports psbt, *lib doesn't
08:08 < belcher> oh wait no you want yieldgens to accept snicker offers
08:08 < waxwing> of course, and coinjoinxt too (which it's perfectly reasonable to argue is a more interesting idea)
08:08 < waxwing> well not *specifically* that although that's the best version of it.
08:09 < waxwing> just using joinmarket transactions as a kind of "bootstrap" is interesting. also the idea was never per se that Joinmarket would be "the snicker wallet". the idea was that i could demonstrate to people that the idea actually works ...
08:09 < waxwing> it's actually stupidly easy to code once you have the foundations, at least receiver side.
08:10 < waxwing> and i've basically done it. but it needs psbt and ..
08:10 < belcher> how about this; the joinmarket and snicker apps are separate but they monitor the same HD seed, then yieldgen wallets would be doing snicker too if both apps are running
08:11 < waxwing> thing is, any of this stuff is easy to do *in principle", just get it to work. i can do it and have already done it. that's not the point to me, the point is the quality of software engineering has to be high enough.
08:11 < waxwing> yes snicke-receiver i think already exists in the PR, as a long running process (it's been so long i can't remember exactly)
08:11 < waxwing> it's trivial/uninteresting whether it's another event loop in a yg or just its own process, i think.
08:12 < belcher> if its its own process then joinmarket doesnt need to require python3.6
08:12 < waxwing> snicker absolutely doesn't need py3.6, no. that's not it.
08:12 < belcher> ok, i understood that snicker requires psbt which python-bitcoinlib has but that requires 3.6
08:13 < waxwing> *lib doesn't have psbt, *tx does.
08:13 < waxwing> and only *tx requires py3.6
08:13 < belcher> whats *tx ?
08:13 < waxwing>  *lib requires py3 though, but that's no longer at issue.
08:13 < waxwing> python-bitcointx
08:14 < belcher> ok
08:15 < waxwing> i can certainly see why it seems that i am making unclear/confusing points, they are two separate things, i was more mentioning snicker as an *example* of what i consider "blocked", even though it's not blocked, by properly cleaning up jmbitcoin.
08:15 < waxwing> it's not literally blocked, and nor is anything else. but as i tried to communicate at an earlier time, the fact that that code is such a mess is a big problem for me - how much more of a problem it is, for other potential contributors.
08:16 < waxwing> and it's not only about mess, it's also about how easy it will be to add future features that will be needed.
08:16 < waxwing> and of course it's also the whole modularisation thing, much better to be part of a group of users of a bitcoin package, not have our own.
08:16 < belcher> ah ok i understand
08:17 < waxwing> finally i did spend most of a month doing this refactor. it removed like 1500 lines or something crazy. it took a huge time because it didn't just change jmbitcoin but also the data formats (particularly, but not only, hex/binary).
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08:18 < waxwing> i have no intention to try and force it in, but it would be a shame to waste that. well, there is more detail in the PR.
08:18 < belcher> does your PR also use python-bitcointx ?
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08:19 < belcher> sorry i havent had time to really look at it
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09:16 < waxwing> yes belcher 
09:17 < waxwing> you can see more discussion in the logs day i linked above, plus a very detailed summary of all the technical changes in the second comment of the PR
09:18 < waxwing> afaik it's now functionally complete, don a ton of testing (and indeed, had to!), but that's somewhat academic if and unless there's a sensible way to make it installable.
09:18 < waxwing> that's really the only reason i still mark it WIP (536)
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09:23 < belcher> my fidelity bond branch has a small commit which adds support for time locked addresses, so ill soon upload that and make sure its relatively easy to make that work on python-bitcoinlib
09:24 < belcher> but the requiring of python 3.6 is still an issue to resolve
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09:34 < waxwing> belcher, for fidelity bonds, how do you feel about changing the protocol?
09:34 < belcher> in what way?
09:34 < waxwing> i mostly mean data formats
09:34 < waxwing> but maybe not only
09:34 < belcher> right now im only working on creating wallets which support timelocked addresses
09:35 < waxwing> i see. are you like subclassing/mixin-ing the wallet classes in JM wallet.py?
09:35 < belcher> yeah
09:35 < belcher> and its really annoying :( but whatever ill get through it
09:35 < belcher> i think fidelity bonds can be added in a backward-compatible way, because takers ignore messages they dont understand from makers
09:35 < waxwing> ok. note the 536 PR only simplifies and get rid of stupid cruft like deprecated alternative versions of methods; it doesn't change functionality.
09:35 < belcher> so non-upgraded takers can just ignore the new messages which advertise fidelity bonds
09:36 < belcher> 536 edits wallet code? wallet.py/wallet_service.py/wallet_utils.py
09:36 < belcher> ill have a look
09:48 < waxwing> i wouldn't worry about it. the 'translation' to the new version, if it gets merged at some point, will be easy enough.
09:57 < belcher> why does python-bitcointx even need python3.6? i managed to avoid requiring anything like that in electrum personal server by careful writing, the really useful feature in 3.6 is asyncio but we dont use that
09:58 < belcher> another possible solution is to package up joinmarket in an appimage like what electrum started doing recently, then python3.6 wont matter
09:58 < waxwing> type annotations is one, and there's another i forget
09:58 < belcher> although electrum doesnt use any external libraries like secp256k1 i think, that might make a difference
09:59 < waxwing> actually i think it does now? (optionally), i can't remember when they changed it
10:00 < waxwing> https://gist.github.com/dgpv/6607c7d0eff66c387d8a5eaeb378e787#support-for-python-versions-less-than-python36
10:02 < waxwing> but do read my "Motivation" section in my PR, there are like 3 or 4 reasons i chose the fork, the *lib version, as it stands today, doesn't meet our needs.
10:03 < waxwing> your point about binary packaging is an interesting one. perhaps i could go back to looking at that, maybe it's got better in the year or two since I last did.
10:03 < waxwing> have you looked into AppImage at all? I briefly started looking a couple months back but didn't get far.
10:03 < belcher> im afriad not i didnt look
10:04 < waxwing> at least i can say, it wasn't entirely obvious. maybe pyinstaller handles things better nowadays, could be interesting to try.
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11:03 < grubles> joinmarket's payjoin is only compatible with other joinmarket peers right?
11:04 < grubles> i.e. i can't use rhavar's bustapay implementation 
11:15 < belcher> i think so yes
11:15 < belcher> they communicate over the IRC networks used by joinmarket
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12:12 < grubles> ok thx
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12:39 < waxwing> i believe you only have joinmarket-joinmarket and samourai stowaway phone-phone with QR codes.
12:40 < waxwing> BIP79 is interesting but it doesn't have versioning so i think it doesn't make sense without at least that (nor does it talk about psbt which i think it should)
12:40 < waxwing> i think there were a couple of other points, i raised them on the mailing list
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12:41 < waxwing> afair the general outline of what it was saying seemed right to me
12:41 < waxwing> i only did payjoin as a proof of concept really. having said that it should work ok, we did some testing here and there.
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12:42 < waxwing> the samourai thing has several rounds of QR code swapping which i thought strange. two i thought should be enough.
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14:51 < belcher_> payjoin for smartphones could be really nice when trading bitcoins for cash in person... unfortunately last time i traded the counterparty was using blockchain.info's web wallet and said i should as well because "transfers between bc.i wallets are instant"
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14:53 < belcher_> instead of QR codes, i wonder if another method also makes sense, most smartphones have wifi, bluetooth, nfc
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14:55 < belcher_> but yeah just two QR codes would work, these are the QR codes needed i think 1) receiver sends their input(s) and output addr to sender 2) sender sends partially-signed tx to receiver
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17:46 < DSRelBot> [DS/belcher] AlexCato1 if you have time, consider moving the agora relaybot to hackint
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--- Log closed Wed Mar 18 00:00:25 2020