--- Log opened Sat May 02 00:00:10 2020
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00:43 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] got logged out - just in case I missed your reply can you repeat it @belcher? Otherwise i'll wait thank you
01:03 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] Something went wrong and my jm wallet thinks has the balance on two addresses incorrect - how do I fix it. I tried --recoversync but it didnt fix it
01:18 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] looks like the tx was stuck in my bitcoind
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08:00 < MaxSan> Heya, so what does FROZEN and NOT FROZEN mean on the GUI?
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08:28 < qubenix> MaxSan: you can freeze utxos so that they are not used. https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/blob/master/docs/release-notes/release-notes-0.5.4.md
09:16 < waxwing> yup, and note the auto-freezing mentioned is now enabled (in a release a little while after that), for deposits into an already-used address. there is a config flag for changing that behaviour.
09:18 < waxwing> info here: https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/blob/master/docs/release-notes/release-notes-0.6.2.md#auto-freeze-of-deposits-to-reused-addresses
09:46 < MaxSan> ahh cool
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10:08 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] @belcher_ based on your last comment- the user I send the three transactions too would still be able to connect the original prejoin and post joined coins right? And what if the user combines all three spends on the blockchain then everyone will is that right?
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10:46 < DSRelBot> [DS/AlexCato] if it's about the same amount, yes, it could be connected. If you did just a single coinjoin though (that is, just a sendpayment/single join), the privacy gains arent THAT good anyways. If you use multiple joins / the joinmarket tumbler, it's extremely hard. Unless it's pretty much the same amonut in to out
10:47 < DSRelBot> [DS/AlexCato] so easiest solution: if you have a payment to make for 1 btc (for example), maybe use a bigger amount to coinjoin. Maybe use 1.5 btc instead and keep the remaining 0.5 btc for some other future payment
10:47 < DSRelBot> [DS/AlexCato] then you're pretty much o the safe side
10:47 < DSRelBot> [DS/AlexCato] (oh, this is meant as @user on hackint)
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11:12 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] Hi @AlexCato my original example was this: I have 1 BTC and need to spend 0.9. So I tumble and end up with three address, 0.5, 0.3, 0.1. In order to spend my 0.9 I have to use all three. So for the recipient does that render the entire join useless? Now that he knows these three containing combined 1 BTC are connected can he trace them back to
11:12 < HackRelay> the 1 BTC input?
11:12 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] And if he combines them on the blockchain then not just him but everyone can
11:13 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] Is the only solution to tumble a larger amount than I need to spend so i would never have to combine all three outputs
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12:13 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user123456] My join died and a transaction got stuck. I cleared it all out and backtracked the tumble.schedule to the right spot and now i'm trying to restart but it keeps telling me "No confirmed coins in the selected mixdepth(s). Quitting" but I cant tell why - the first line in the schedule is "1,0,8,INTERNAL,20,16,0" and there are coins in
12:13 < HackRelay> mixdepth 1 so why that error?
12:17 < adlai> user123456, at what stage exactly did things get stuck? it could be that an unconfirmed transaction is still present in your bitcoin node
12:21 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user123456] What happened was a transaction was sent to my node but never broadcast so the tumbler was stuck forever waiting for confirmation. I cleared out that transaction and so now the coins appear back in the previous / correct address in the wallet
12:21 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user123456] the coins had moved to mixdepth 2 in my wallet but based on a transaction that never broadcast - so now they are back in mixdepth 1 in the wallet. where they should be
12:22 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user123456] but when I try to rerun that step it tells me that error
12:22 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user123456] @adlai
12:24 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user123456] side note: what is that "16" in  "1,0,8,INTERNAL,20,16,0" - according to the docs it goes " wait time in minutes, flag indicating incomplete/broadcast/completed" the 16 seems new then as it is in between those two fields  "1,0,8,INTERNAL,20,16,0""
12:24  * adlai is not too familiar with the failure modes of the tumbler script
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13:19 < belcher_> user123456 link that doc please, because its a little bit out of date
13:19 < belcher_> 16 now means the number of significant figures to round to, 16 meaning no rounding
13:20 < belcher_> e.g. if that was 1 then the coinjoin would be for 0.1 btc instead of 0.12897454 btc, if instead the value was 2 then it would send 0.13 btc
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13:37 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] @belcher_ would you be able to help me with my question above? thank you
13:40 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] ill copy/paste: I have 1 BTC and need to spend 0.9. So I tumble and end up with three address, 0.5, 0.3, 0.1. In order to spend my 0.9 I have to use all three. So for the recipient does that render the entire join useless? Now that he knows these three containing combined 1 BTC are connected can he trace them back to the 1 BTC input?  And if he
13:40 < HackRelay> combines them on the blockchain then not just him but everyone can
13:40 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] Is the only solution to tumble a larger amount than I need to spend so i would never have to combine all three outputs
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14:53 < waxwing> user : it's difficult to make absolute statements. if you end up using 3 tumbler destinations as common inputs to a new payment, and if that transaction can be safely assumed to not be a coinjoin (of any sort), then the receiver can deduce that those three inputs are co owned. but can he then trace those 3 back to the start of the tumble? most likely not; perhaps he could figure it out with some very complex analysis, but he would not be sure 
14:53 < waxwing> even if he did.
14:54 < waxwing> w.r.t restarting tumbles: note that in general, restarting a tumble with --restart appended to the existing command line (i say that because i think you're using CLI), with all the other parameters the same, should work.
14:54 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] oh ok I thought maybe he could by amount analysis
14:55 < waxwing> oh if you just mean that, that's true, but it's highly problematic and is true for basically any obfuscation technique.
14:55 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] highly problematic how do you mean
14:55 < waxwing> oh but wait; the input to the tumble is 1 and the payment is 0.9 right?
14:55 < waxwing> so there isn't an amount fingerprint there is there? or did i misunderstand something
14:56 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] the input is 1 - the outputs are 0.5, 0.3 and 0.2 so I have to use all three to make the 0.9 payment
14:56 < waxwing> oh like that yes i get you. well highly problematic because first of all you would not get back 1.0 total from the tumble. there are fees.
14:56 < waxwing> and also problematic, connected with the above "noise" aspect, because there may be various other summed inputs that around 1 to the whole "network" of joins.
14:57 < waxwing> so it's like, it *can* definitely, always be the case that "the amount comes out is about the amount going in somewhere else" is a possible fingerprint, but it tends to be way worse for very large sizes because they stand out.
14:58 < waxwing> s/that around 1/that add to around 1/
14:58 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] so you think it would be difficult to do that amount correlation but maybe possible. Would a good solution be to tumble enough so that when sending to 3 addresses there's a good chance it requires no more than 2 for a payment
14:58 < waxwing> clearly though, it is not the intent of the tumbler algorithm for you to combine, especially combine *all* of the final destinations together.
14:59 < waxwing> even if i strongly doubt any stat analysis out there is actually successfully picking up on stuff like that, it's at least a strong theoretical concern.
15:00 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] To avoid that, would a good solution be to tumble enough so that when sending to 3 addresses there's a good chance it requires no more than 2 for a payment?
15:00 < waxwing> anyway i was in the middle of talking about restarting; i explained the common case, but your case is much different, because apparently you zapped/killed a long-unconfirmed tx. then you can't do that. you would have to start a new tumble from the right mixdepth.
15:01 < waxwing> i mean, you wouldn't *have* to do anything, but you get it.
15:01 < waxwing> user well but now it seems like the meta question is really in force: how do i avoid cospending different utxos i own? i don't think there's any simple answer.
15:02 < waxwing> the best general answer i'd give, and it's a matter of opinion, is that co-spending a few smaller amounts is very unlikely to untangle a whole bunch of coinjoins. at least, not on its own.
15:03 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] right so in general if you can tumble enough not to have to combine that is best
15:03 < waxwing> if you put like 50 btc into a tumble into 3 addresses and then cospend *all* the outputs at the end, well, i agree, amount correlation comes back. tumbles ideally are to move the coins somewhere else - a new cold storage wallet, an exchange, etc. ideally more than one place but that's just ideally.
15:03 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] but then what happens to change that would now be small - would you then tumble again in between spends
15:04 < waxwing> another thing you can do which completely screws the blockchain analysis, is alternate taker and maker roles in joinmarket. this makes it even way harder than it already is.
15:05 < waxwing> you can't realistically tumble between each spend, it's too much time/chain space/money. i would use a mixture of all behaviours - tumbles here and there, opportunistic individual payments via a single coinjoin, and running the yield generator.
15:05 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] wrt to restarting -  the tx never broadcast to the network it was only in my own wallet - so I rolled back the wallet and the schedule and the jmwallet showed the balance rolled back - cant see why it gave that error - anyway even though the cli gave that error - the joinmarket-qt picked it up fine and didnt give that error - shrug
15:05 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] question about yield generator - if I have a YG and a taker running at the same time - is there a way to make sure my taker doesn't use my own YG maker
15:05 < waxwing> why did the transaction never broadcast? did you somehow switch that off in joinmarket?
15:06 < waxwing> don't run taker and yg at same time. do it in serial.
15:06 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] no idea - it was in my bitcoin node but never showed on the public chain - I ended up removing it and rescanning the wallet to fix rthe balance
15:06 < waxwing> removing how? zapwallettxes?
15:07 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] I want to run YG and maker on separate wallets at the same time - basically have a YG always running on "cold" storage - no way to avoid having my taker skip using my own maker
15:07 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] yeah i think I used another command to delete it then zapwallettx
15:08 < waxwing> you can't do that on the same wallet, it's unsupported and there is a lock file to prevent it. if you circumvent that we can't help you and i dont' know what would happen.
15:08 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] no not on same wallet
15:08 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] diferent wallets
15:08 < waxwing> ok gotcha.
15:08 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] I want to have one running on a cold wallet 24x7
15:08 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] then ill have a hot wallet and occasionally tumble or cj
15:08 < waxwing> yeah it's a bit of functionality missing really. there is an "ignored_makers" field in the code, but we have no way to easily let you add that in to your taker.
15:09 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] would be nice not to have to stop the cold wallet YG every time I want to do a tumble you know
15:09 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] thank you for all your time!
15:09 < waxwing> i mean for normal amounts the chance that you'll pick your other wallet is *very* small, and it'd be only one out of say 8, so is it really so bad?
15:09 < waxwing> if it was me i wouldn't mind. it's just another participant wallet.
15:09 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] guess not - maybe there is a bit of a risk of someone doing some analysis and seeing when the cold wallet stops but yeah
15:10 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] by the way onlyon the other issue the cli gave the error - i loaded the schedule into joinmarketqt  and that seemed to work not sure why
15:10 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user]  gotta stop away be back a little later
15:10 < waxwing> for very pernickety people there is a -P option on the command line to choose exactly which makers you want but it's uh, hardly user friendly :)
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15:50 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] yeah a better option would be if there was a way to avoid a specific maker
15:54 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] Think mixing as a maker would go faster if you reduced your fee to 0?
17:03 < belcher_> nothing more to add to the above comments user, yes if you combine those three utxos to pay 0.9 it could be used for amount correlation
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18:25 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] Thank you
19:22 < nixbitcoin> Is it possible to run JoinMarket Yield Generator on a merchant wallet who's external xpub is constantly receiving payments via something like BTCPayserver?
19:22 < belcher_> nixbitcoin that should work i think
19:23 < nixbitcoin> Very cool. We have a JoinMarket PR under review right now and a BTCPayserver PR coming up. Will be interesting to see them combined.
20:02 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] If you run out of uxtos to source a commitment mid tumble is there anything you can do? Reduce the coinjoin amount? Switch to payjoin - or does that also require commitments
20:03 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] I mean other than sourcing external commitments or adding funds
20:09 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] Does it make sense that a uxto that was created/funded during the tumble  would be used too many times? How would that have happened
20:11 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] it looks like all was going fine, then there was a number of stalls detected and retries and - then I restarted the tumble and now it tells me it cant source a commit and one of the uxtos is used up
21:09 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/user] would sending the balance of the "used" uxto to another address in the same mixdepth create a new unused uxto ... haven't seen that suggested as a strategy but it seems like it might  help get past this
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--- Log closed Sun May 03 00:00:11 2020