--- Log opened Wed Jun 10 00:00:47 2020
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04:25 < belcher_> waxwing, it sounds like you can solve the toxic change problem by not having change, but then if you dont have change then bitcoin isnt divisible
04:41 < belcher_> the conversation on mastadon is interesting, thanks for that
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05:09 < fluffypony> belcher_: before Monero had RingCT the way that was solved was to group things by denominations
05:10 < fluffypony> so for eg. if you had 1 XMR and you made a 0.1234 payment your change would be 0.9, 0.08, 0.007, 0.0006
05:10 < fluffypony> (and then ring sigs for 0.9 would only be with other 0.9 XMR outputs)
05:11 < fluffypony> you could simplify this further by only having 1 and 2 value outputs
05:31 < waxwing> i sometimes wonder if we're talking past each other a bit in these conversations, i don't think anyone involved doesn't realise that choosing the denomination approach solves one problem but trades it off for another.
05:32 < fluffypony> waxwing: which is the other problem it creates?
05:32 < waxwing> what i particularly didn't like about their presentation was the implication that the problem is magically solved if you dont' have change.
05:32 < waxwing> well it does two things, first it requires lots more tx space (which might not matter if your blockchain is largely unused), second people don't want to received fixed amounts. they want to receive what they're owed.
05:33 < waxwing> so it's not just that it trades off, it also moves the problem back out to earlier txs, which might indeed be better from a privacy perspective, but exacerbates the scalability issues.
05:34 < waxwing> i mean the problem is trivially solved if every utxo is 1 satoshi.
05:40 < fluffypony> doesn't CoinJoin, by it's very nature, imply larger tx sizes if it's maximally used?
05:42 < waxwing> yes but for the same mixing amount you could end up using a lot more size with many fixed denominations.
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--- Log closed Thu Jun 11 00:00:47 2020