--- Log opened Sat Jan 16 00:00:17 2021
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00:22 < endthefed> hey everyone wanted to ask if an update for core 0.21 is coming?
00:22 < endthefed> also what would be the steps to update joinmarket to the latest version?
01:23 < waxwing> endthefed, i'd be very surprised if anything changed in latest JM for 0.21, although ofc we can run some tests now, not sure if anyone has.
01:23 < waxwing> there aren't any extra steps required when you update Core, it shouldn't change anything.
01:35 < endthefed> ok thanks! waxwing
01:40 < endthefed> I think I am still running 0.7 version with P2SH addresses, when I upgrade to JM 0.8 will I need to transfer the funds to the native segwit addresses? how that will work with the previous wallet?
01:40 < waxwing> see 0.8.0 release notes
01:52 < endthefed> got it! a command to see JM version?
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01:54 < waxwing>  scripts --version or about in gui
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03:56 < belcher> HRF accepts payjoin https://hrf.org/donate-bitcoin/payjoin/
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03:59 < belcher> one thing you can do with payjoin support is mix your own coins with HRFs from the point of view of anyone using the common input ownership heuristic
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04:16 < belcher> wow theres an exchange called sideshift which takes payjoin
04:17 < belcher> sideshift is a no-signup altcoin exchange, like shapeshift if anyone remembers that
04:17 < belcher> they also have liquid-bitcoin
04:17 < belcher> https://sideshift.ai/payjoin/btc
04:22 < waxwing> belcher, the page doesn't seem to mention payjoin there?
04:23 < belcher> its a payment option
04:23 < belcher> click "To Send" then scroll down and choose "Bitcoin payjoin"
04:23 < belcher> they treat it like a payment method or altcoin
04:24 < waxwing> hmm may be a browser issue but i don't see 'to send'
04:24 < waxwing> i just see sideshift 'your drivechain mainnet address' and 'Next->'
04:25 < belcher> it must be a browser issue because for me its right in front of me
04:26 < belcher> what i see https://imgur.com/2OIJQrH
04:26 < belcher> in this case you'd send bitcoin with payjoin and receive bitcoin, which doesnt make too much sense but usually you'd receive another currency
04:26 < waxwing> yes, very weird, 100% different for me on firefox
04:27 < waxwing> https://imgur.com/a/iv0sDLe
04:28 < belcher> you're on sideshift.ai, right?
04:28 < waxwing> indeed i'd be quite keen to test it out, especially if they have code somewhere that's open
04:28 < waxwing> i just clicked your link. i know it seems ridiculous.
04:28 < waxwing> ok now i see it.
04:28 < belcher> maybe its geography? try a vpn or tor
04:29 < waxwing> this makes zero sense. i have it open in two tabs, the URL is identical.
04:29 < waxwing> webserver is probably glitched in some very weird way, that's my guess.
04:29 < waxwing> (i.e. in one tab it's as you show, in the other tab it's what i showed before)
04:29 < belcher> what also appeared in my search results is that theres a lot of online jobs paying in bitcoin https://www.upwork.com/freelance-jobs/bitcoin/
04:30 < belcher> maybe its been like this for ages and i just didnt know, cool though
04:30 < waxwing> nice scam there lol, they take 1.5% of your btc. presumably plus the network fee.
04:31 < belcher> what scam?
04:31 < belcher> oh trading bitcoin(payjoin) for bitcoin, yeah
04:31 < belcher> i guess its like a mixer
04:31 < waxwing> pretty crappy one eh, lol
04:31 < belcher> noone would actually do it, they'd trade bitcoin(payjoin) for an altcoin or possibly stablecoin or L-BTC
04:32 < waxwing> for me the merchant angle is cool but so hard to convince people to adopt, meanwhile if we just had 1 or 2 bigger wallets adopt it that would help tremendously.
04:32 < waxwing> specifically electrum and Core implementing bip78.
04:33 < waxwing> there are cases, however few, where people make peer to peer payments and currently unless they're jm or wasabi users, payjoin is not even an option to consider.
04:33 < belcher> ill be focusing on places where merchant adoption makes the most sense, for example p2p exchanges are already considered risky by surveillance companies so it would help them if they started using payjoin to resist such spies
04:33 < belcher> ofc regulated exchanges like coinbase will never adopt payjoin
04:33 < waxwing> a few merchants here and there might pick it up. it's available but the way btcpayserver is set up, it's *extremely* unlikely that they will activate it. i know because i went through the process in some detail.
04:33 < belcher> how come?
04:33 < waxwing> there are very prominent warnings
04:33 < belcher> you need a hot wallet, right?
04:34 < waxwing> yes, did you read that thread from august btw? i went through some details.
04:34 < belcher> nope, please link
04:34 < waxwing> although .. that's a stretch, not really detailed.
04:34 < waxwing> i linked it yesterday
04:34 < belcher> ah the bitcoin/bips
04:34 < waxwing> no
04:34 < waxwing> https://x0f.org/web/statuses/104778091583959476
04:34 < belcher> ah right
04:35 < belcher> where do you write about the details there?
04:35 < belcher> unless im using mastadon wrong, theres only two toots of yours
04:35 < waxwing> oh ok i remembered wrong. i didn't at all sorry.
04:35 < waxwing> i got it mixed up with lightning, i remember writing a long thread that time.
04:35 < waxwing> for this one, there wasn't anything much to write, i couldn't find a single one!
04:36 < waxwing> for the btcpayserver settings though, that's interesting perhaps to document somewhere. there are several big warnings, and it's hard to disagree.
04:36 < waxwing> while lightning is also hot wallet, the problem is that the on-chain wallet might have more funds in it .. i mean, it's at least a very reasonable perspective.
04:36 < waxwing> basically an ordinary-ish user is 99% likely to not activate a hot wallet.
04:37 < belcher> i always thought merchant solutions should have both a hot wallet and cold wallet, and be coded so that once the hot wallet reaches a certain value it gets transferred to the cold wallet automatically
04:37 < belcher> although that only really works well with high volumes of payments
04:38 < waxwing> hmm yeah i guess. i suppose there is another aspect: certain kinds of businesses will do bitcoin receives *and* sends (like exchanges), whlie most will only do receives.
04:38 < waxwing> for the latter it's easy to see why they'd want to go with cold only.
04:39 < waxwing> thinking practically, it might make a lot of sense to somehow have payjoin be in the lightning wallet, since that's the wallet that's hot already.
04:39 < belcher> put it this way: yes this stuff has a cost but theres also a privacy benefit, and if your business suffers from being spied on (for example you're a casino or p2p exchange and regulated exchanges ban your customers) then the cost of payjoins is worth it
04:40 < waxwing> well, yeah, that's true.
04:43 < belcher> thats why i expect and hope p2p exchanges will be one of the earlier adopters
04:44 < waxwing> oh good point, that's a good niche for it.
04:44 < belcher> i was actually thinking of emailing a few of them later, but i dont see a solution to actually link to them, none of them use btcpayserver
04:45 < waxwing> it's a tall order. another reason to want say electrum; you'd need enough demand from users, to make it worth bothering.
04:45 < belcher> yeah theres a chicken-and-egg issue
04:47 < belcher> id guess for p2p exchanges they just use bitcoin core and build their own stuff on top of it
04:48 < belcher> so to help them adopt perhaps whats needed is some software that connect to bitcoin core's RPC and listens for incoming bip78 connections
04:48 < waxwing> bisq is written in java and uses bitcoinjs as i recall
04:48 < belcher> then the p2p exchange just runs that and exposes the socket
04:48 < waxwing> which was the main reason they took ages on segwit
04:54 < belcher> https://thekratomsyndicate.com/blog/buying-kratom-with-payjoin.html
04:55 < belcher> just found this
04:55 < belcher> looks like some drug that grows in south east asia
04:56 < belcher> that explains why that merchant adopted it i guess, surely they get banned by exchanges haha
04:59 < asymptotically> "Error 1020: Access denied" - am I on a list now? :P
05:00 < belcher> try tor?
05:01 < belcher> perhaps your ISP is blocking it due to being some drug, i read now its actually illegal in a bunch of places... although the company seems to be based in the US or at least has PO Box there
05:02 < belcher> they accept payments with LN too, wow
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05:13 < belcher> https://nurails.com/ "Our infrastructure is open source and community driven using Payjoin security framework"
05:13 < belcher> some kind of payment processor that works over telegram
05:13 < belcher> i dont entirely get it
05:16 < waxwing> military grade payjoin security
05:17 < belcher> yeah i put Maybe in the wiki page since im not sure of it myself, putting Yes seems to put it at the same level as btcpayserver
05:53 < technonerd> seems like a work in progress
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--- Log closed Sun Jan 17 00:00:17 2021