--- Log opened Mon Mar 01 00:00:44 2021 00:25 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:29 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #joinmarket 01:05 -!- d [~davterra@gateway/tor-sasl/tralfaz] has joined #joinmarket 01:06 -!- d is now known as Guest54569 01:06 -!- davterra [~davterra@gateway/tor-sasl/tralfaz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:23 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:25 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has joined #joinmarket 01:25 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:28 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has joined #joinmarket 01:28 -!- jungly [~jungly@host-79-55-185-126.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:38 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:41 -!- jonatack [~jon@37.173.106.99] has joined #joinmarket 01:43 -!- jungly [~jungly@host-79-55-185-126.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #joinmarket 01:54 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #joinmarket 02:52 -!- undeath [~undeath@hashcat/team/undeath] has joined #joinmarket 03:17 -!- Arvel72Dooley [~Arvel72Do@static.57.1.216.95.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:19 -!- Cali88Wyman [~Cali88Wym@static.57.1.216.95.clients.your-server.de] has joined #joinmarket 04:18 < belcher> threenp im not a lawyer but such cryptographic proofs arent required for anything else, cash for example 04:19 < threenp> well, you generally have some form of invoice or receipt 04:19 < threenp> IANAL either but I imagine explicitly handing out incorrect receipts to others by design can be an issue 04:20 < threenp> not sure at all if that would be the interpretation tho 04:22 < threenp> either way, even if it would be the case, in my book it would be best if JM didn't concern itself with that and instead focused on its stated goals :) 04:22 < threenp> Maybe it'd make sense to add a configuration flag for it tho 04:23 < threenp> privacy be default so opt out obv 04:24 < belcher> the configuration flag wont do anything, because even if the feature is possible it makes all proofs not-convincing 04:24 < belcher> indeed its a general rule that signing stuff with empty addresses isnt convincing, because the private keys can be transferred 04:25 < threenp> compliance is so much about narrative and optics and sometoimes even politics it seems so i could see it swinging either way 04:27 < threenp> translated to the physical world, handing everyone you stamp a contract with a copy of your seal ;) 04:28 < threenp> (which is of course technically easy to replicate!) 04:35 < belcher> thats a fungibility loss 04:35 < threenp> depends on which glasses you wear eh 04:38 < belcher> if following government regulation is so important why even use bitcoin? paypal would suffice 04:39 < belcher> which government anyway, bitcoin is already controlled in places like china or nigeria, are we meant to ask permission from them? obviously not 04:39 < threenp> doesn't even have to be government regulation, could just be an uptight auditing firm 04:39 < threenp> but 100% agree, like i said i don't think it should be an issue influencing the design choices in JM 04:39 < belcher> thats their problem, they can worry about themselves and we'll worry about bitcoin fungibility 04:41 < threenp> i appreciate your stance on it, there is no shortage of crypto projects throwing around fancy words that all mean nothing once push comes to shove and their founders get some outside funding 06:11 -!- k3tan [~pi@gateway/tor-sasl/k3tan] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:30 -!- Guest54569 [~davterra@gateway/tor-sasl/tralfaz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30 -!- d [~davterra@gateway/tor-sasl/tralfaz] has joined #joinmarket 06:30 -!- d is now known as Guest75033 06:36 -!- coconutanna- [~coconutan@gateway/tor-sasl/coconutanna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:36 -!- coconutanna- [~coconutan@gateway/tor-sasl/coconutanna] has joined #joinmarket 07:26 -!- Cali88Wyman [~Cali88Wym@static.57.1.216.95.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:28 -!- Leo22Rutherford [~Leo22Ruth@static.57.1.216.95.clients.your-server.de] has joined #joinmarket 07:31 < waxwing> technonerd, see #815 opened today .. maybe something has happened with PySide2? 07:34 < waxwing> belcher, your thought is interesting, but i was going to respond with something you then said anyway: it's never an actual proof due to private keys being transferrable. 07:34 < waxwing> it somehow reminds me of that story that some dutch exchange wanted proof of ownership, consisting of a screenshot of the electrum wallet lol 07:35 < waxwing> no joke i think they actually recommended the use of screenshots 08:18 < technonerd> upgrading pyside2 and pyqt5 to 5.15.2 successfully builds the venv 08:18 < technonerd> no way to test if the gui runs atm 08:20 < waxwing> thanks for doing that. hmm that could be a problem for actually running the GUI. iirc they borked something in 5.15, there's an issue somewhere 08:21 < waxwing> see the links to Qt bug reports here: https://github.com/JoinMarket-Org/joinmarket-clientserver/issues/737#issuecomment-735241470 08:37 -!- test2333222 [68251f5e@104.37.31.94] has joined #joinmarket 08:38 -!- test2333222 [68251f5e@104.37.31.94] has quit [Client Quit] 09:10 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:11 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has joined #joinmarket 10:28 -!- k3tan [~pi@gateway/tor-sasl/k3tan] has joined #joinmarket 11:04 -!- Leo22Rutherford [~Leo22Ruth@static.57.1.216.95.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:07 -!- niftynei_ is now known as niftynei 11:43 < belcher> waxwing yep you're right 11:43 < belcher> i got the idea because someone asked about proof of custody through a coinswap, and i realized its always possible to fake such a proof because of the private key handover 12:01 -!- jonatack [~jon@37.173.106.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:05 -!- Mikayla57Medhurs [~Mikayla57@static.57.1.216.95.clients.your-server.de] has joined #joinmarket 12:11 -!- jonatack [~jon@37.173.106.99] has joined #joinmarket 12:28 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:30 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #joinmarket 12:31 -!- jonatack_ [~jon@37.170.82.107] has joined #joinmarket 12:34 -!- jonatack [~jon@37.173.106.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:40 -!- Mikayla57Medhurs [~Mikayla57@static.57.1.216.95.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:49 -!- fiatjaf [~fiatjaf@2804:7f2:2a8c:f814:ea40:f2ff:fe85:d2dc] has joined #joinmarket 13:23 -!- k3tan [~pi@gateway/tor-sasl/k3tan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:23 -!- k3tan [~pi@gateway/tor-sasl/k3tan] has joined #joinmarket 15:41 -!- fiatjaf [~fiatjaf@2804:7f2:2a8c:f814:ea40:f2ff:fe85:d2dc] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:57 -!- undeath [~undeath@hashcat/team/undeath] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.0.1] 17:07 -!- jungly_ [~jungly@host-79-18-187-190.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #joinmarket 17:10 -!- jm_noob [68251f5e@104.37.31.94] has joined #joinmarket 17:11 -!- jungly [~jungly@host-79-55-185-126.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:12 < jm_noob> For the purpose of not shooting yourself in the foot later, is it advisable to always do sweep coinjoins? 17:13 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 17:15 < belcher> jm_noob depends on the situation 17:15 < belcher> consider using the tumbler script 17:16 < jm_noob> Does the tumbler script not leave change outputs at every mixdepth? 17:17 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #joinmarket 17:20 < belcher> jm_noob only temporarily 17:20 < belcher> it does a sweep at the end of each mixdepht so the entire balance minus fees goes to the next mixdepth 17:22 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/J5AsvQy8sSuaX4] if im part of a native segwit coinjoin, but one output address begins with "3", fore me it looks obvivious where the coins ended into or not? Mixed address type joins not likely? 17:23 < jm_noob> So if M0 change ends up in M1 (where there's already previously mixed coins) isn't it dangerous/possible for the two to combine going forward? 17:26 < belcher> J5AsvQy8sSuaX4 yes but if you use tumbler you'll have many other coinjoins before or after and so the link will still be broken 17:26 < belcher> if you're not using tumbler then you should 17:26 < belcher> single coinjoins are only useful if the coins came from coinjoin already, for example if you run a yield generator and are spending from that wallet 17:27 < belcher> or maybe they're useful if your threat model is a braindead algorithm that doesnt check for this 17:27 < HackRelay> [hackint-irc/J5AsvQy8sSuaX4] ok 17:27 < belcher> jm_noob they are combined with one coinjoin in between them 17:27 < belcher> you could put the coins in M0 and M2 instead if you want two coinjoins between them 17:34 -!- Saloframes [~Saloframe@2607:9000:2000:16::a44d] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:43 -!- HackRelay [~jmrelayha@p5de4a7fb.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:45 < jm_noob> belcher so then there's nothing to worry about regarding "toxic" change when using the tumbler script? 17:45 -!- DSRelBot [~DSRelBot@p5de4a7fb.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:45 < belcher> im fairly sure there isnt, we've done everything we can against that 17:46 < belcher> joinmarket's liquidity market allows coinjoins of any amount, so sweep coinjoins without change are possible 17:46 < belcher> and the number of makers used is quite big 17:46 < belcher> but its not an exact science 17:50 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:55 -!- DSRelBot [~DSRelBot@p5de4aa8e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #joinmarket 17:56 -!- HackRelay [~jmrelayha@p5de4aa8e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #joinmarket 17:57 < jm_noob> belcher so if  doing a tumbler with say N=6 it would be doing 4 rounds of mixing expecting to interact with a total of 24 different participants? 17:57 < belcher> i dont remember what -N means 17:57 < belcher> but yes something like that 17:58 < jm_noob> N is the people you want to mix with per round I believe. Does the script ensure to not mix with any previously mixed people/UTXOs from prior rounds? 17:59 < belcher> i dont think the word "round" is used anywhere 17:59 < belcher> theres mixdepth, and from each mixdepth by default theres 2 or 3 coinjoins 17:59 < belcher> no it doesnt exclude makers it used previously 18:00 < belcher> in order to get unique makers (an anonymity set in other words) it creates big coinjoins with many makers 18:01 < jm_noob> what do you mean by big coinjoins? 18:03 < belcher> with many makers involved 18:03 < belcher> i forgot the exact default but its something like 10 18:03 < belcher> in the early years the default was 3 :p 18:06 < jm_noob> but if there's no guarantee of unique markers in each mixdepth you could potentially pay for "nothing" (ie no increase in privacy) for part of the coinjoin (specifically those UTXOs you mixed with in prior mixdepths) no? 18:06 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #joinmarket 18:06 < belcher> you pay for privacy from a passive observer of the blockchain 18:07 < belcher> theres a couple of different threat models considered; the threat where one or more makers are trying to spy on you, or the threat where someone just looking at the blockchain is trying to spy on you, or someone spying on how you learn your wallets balance and history 18:18 < jm_noob> fair points. I was thinking more of the specific scenario where the amount you want to mix is only in the range of say 10 people in the orderbook. Then naturally yout tumbler coinjoins will be with the same 10 people from M0 all the way to M4 no? 18:27 < jm_noob> are you THE belcher by the way? 18:29 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:29 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #joinmarket 18:33 < jm_noob> saw you left so I will repost my questions 18:33 < jm_noob> fair points. I was thinking more of the specific scenario where the amount you want to mix is only in the range of say 10 people in the orderbook. Then naturally yout tumbler coinjoins will be with the same 10 people from M0 all the way to M4 no? 18:33 < jm_noob> are you THE belcher by the way? 18:43 -!- jm_noob [68251f5e@104.37.31.94] has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 18:45 -!- jungly_ [~jungly@host-79-18-187-190.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:56 -!- jonatack_ [~jon@37.170.82.107] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:59 < belcher> if he comes back or reads the log, yes for very large coinjoin amounts where theres not much liquidity then that isnt great for privacy 20:03 -!- k3tan [~pi@gateway/tor-sasl/k3tan] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:03 -!- rojiro [~rojiro@gateway/tor-sasl/rojiro] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:04 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:04 -!- coconutanna- [~coconutan@gateway/tor-sasl/coconutanna] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:04 -!- Guest75033 [~davterra@gateway/tor-sasl/tralfaz] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:04 -!- technonerd [~techno@gateway/tor-sasl/technonerd] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:04 -!- ghost43_ [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:04 -!- elector [~elector@gateway/tor-sasl/elector] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:05 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:16 -!- rojiro [~rojiro@gateway/tor-sasl/rojiro] has joined #joinmarket 20:16 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has joined #joinmarket 20:16 -!- elector [~elector@gateway/tor-sasl/elector] has joined #joinmarket 20:16 -!- technonerd [~techno@gateway/tor-sasl/technonerd] has joined #joinmarket 20:16 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #joinmarket 20:16 -!- coconutanna- [~coconutan@gateway/tor-sasl/coconutanna] has joined #joinmarket 20:20 -!- k3tan [~pi@gateway/tor-sasl/k3tan] has joined #joinmarket 22:14 < DSRelBot> [DS/guacamole] my intention is to find out if my maker offer may not be attractive enough for takers and possible adjust cjfee 22:42 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #joinmarket 23:12 -!- openoms_ [~quassel@91.132.136.76] has joined #joinmarket 23:13 -!- openoms [~quassel@91.132.136.76] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:55 -!- jungly [~jungly@host-79-18-187-190.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #joinmarket --- Log closed Tue Mar 02 00:00:45 2021