--- Log opened Mon Apr 26 00:00:37 2021
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02:47 < waxwing> did this over the weekend: https://gist.github.com/AdamISZ/3c09bc235654b28ca1192aa1f21fe3ce
02:48 < waxwing> basically, MuSig2 demo in Python, was kinda interesting figuring out details, ofc won't be relevant to this project until after taproot and if we end up wanting to do stuff using multisig
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05:47 < belcher> looks nice(!)
05:48 < belcher> if you really want you could try it on signet where taproot is active
05:48 < belcher> but theres nothing quite like doing it for real on the real bitcoin
05:52 < belcher> regarding CoinjoinXT which requires a multisig at every step, so you're using schnorr, but it seems likely to me that schnorr will take a long long time to be adopted, it would take much longer than segwit because segwit has a direct financial incentive while schnorr doesnt for singlesig... and therefore you'd get a much greater anonymity set for coinjoinxt by using multiparty ecdsa
05:52 < belcher> though of course i know doing schnorr first is better way to go about it because its much easier
06:36 < belcher> also,
06:45 < belcher> (disregard that "also," i realized i was wrong just as i was typing)
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06:50 < waxwing> yeah i'd have to patch up the challenge hash as per comment to use it on the network, plus a few other minor things, not sure i'm incented although agree it would be fun
06:50 < waxwing> re: anon set yeah we have an interesting issue looming here, because adoption for vanilla wallets may be slow given there's no very specific incentive for them.
06:50 < waxwing> so it'll be like multisig wallets trying to drag single sig wallets over, maybe
07:05 < belcher> multisig wallets have no mechanism to drag over single sig
07:05 < belcher> its possible we stay at low-schnorr forever
07:06 < belcher> its also somewhat regrettable because schnorr has batch validation, so the entire network benefits as it becomes more adopted
07:06 < waxwing> "mechanism", well i'm not sure what you mean but probably we're both thinking about incentives, so .. maybe, but it's complicated.
07:06 < waxwing> LN will probably switch fairly quickly, that will change things a bit.
07:06 < belcher> yeah one possible mechanism would be incentives as you say
07:07 < belcher> yep LN is multisig
07:07 < belcher> maybe just high fees will help? if they push over more people to use LN
07:08 < waxwing> yeah you could try to abstract out and say off-chain contracting will be increasingly the usage model, requiring multisig, etc etc. but realistically today we're talking LN I think.
07:08 < waxwing> but also a lot of people that offer multisig wallets also offer single sig (like HW wallet guys, Electrum).
07:08 < waxwing> still it's pretty unclear and i agree with you rollout is likely slower than segwit
07:08 < waxwing> which had a big fee incentive from day 1.
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07:20 < openoms> has anyone thought of discussed setting up JoinMarket on Liquid? Is there something which would make not at all worthwile to pursue? Before cross-input aggregation (if that ever comes) the battle with onchain fees will be constant.
07:20 < belcher> liquid would work really well with coinjoin because of CT you dont even need equal amounts
07:21 < belcher> JoinMarket would require a little bit of recoding so that equal amoutns arent needed
07:21 < belcher> but yes high fees will price out lower coinjoin amounts, the same thing happened in 2017
07:21 < belcher> i think long term other tech like LN or coinswap will work better
07:24 < openoms> until LN will still need onchain transactions base layer privacy is essential. Coinswaps as well are great, but will still require multiple onchain transactions.
07:24 < openoms> seems thar Bisq will move over to a Liquid base as well: https://github.com/bisq-network/bisq/discussions/5430
07:24 < openoms> fits their BSQ token DAO thing too
07:25 < belcher> coinjoin also requires multiple onchain txes
07:25 < belcher> bisq with liquid sounds nice
07:26 < openoms> yes, with cj it is a given and large transactions also, which would improve with coinswap
07:27 < openoms> that is quite interesting that basicly batching transactions would be enough due to CT on Liquid. How could the Maker fee measured then? Using only an absolut fee?
07:28 < belcher> yeah i guess so, only absolute
07:28 < openoms> the biggest advantage of non equal amounts would be that the coins would not break up any more
07:28 < belcher> the maker doesnt even need to know the taker's coinjoin amount, its better if it doesnt know
07:28 < belcher> and theres no need for change outputs
07:29 < belcher> i wonder if theres advantages to starting another project entirely rather than coding it into joinmarket, because liquid's coinjoins are much simpler
07:29 < openoms> sounds like the first step would be just to fork the codebase and plug into the Elements RPC instead of Bitcoin Core.
07:30 < openoms> changes like not needing equal amounts could come after a proof of concept
07:30 < belcher> coinjoins always need some kind of centralized meeting point, so they're never fully decentralized
07:30 < belcher> although liquid has the federation so thats not a conceptual problem
07:32 < openoms> in before they decide that coinjoined funds can't be pegged out :/
07:32 < belcher> yeah :\
07:32 < belcher> detecting coinjoins on liquid is much harder too, because theres no equal amounts
07:33 < belcher> it wont be them deciding ofc, it will be governments and regulators forcing them too... probably what they'll do is force kyc for everything
07:33 < belcher> forcing them to*
07:33 < openoms> yeah, a shaky base to build a privacy infrastructure on
07:34 < openoms> but could be fun while it lasts
07:34 < belcher> i suppose LN is much harder for bisq to adopt because of the channel liquidity issues
07:35 < openoms> then would need a separate sidechain with anon participants as the federation, maybe staking some bitcoin with Fidelity Bonds
07:36 < openoms> also LN has the online requrement, which a blockchain  does not
07:36 < openoms> and XMR has no timelocks
07:37 < openoms> so much discussion on it, but Liquid seems to be a good enough fit for Bisq
07:38 < belcher> doesnt bisq itself have an online requirement?
07:38 < belcher> you have to leave the app switched on
07:39 < openoms> only for the offers to stay alive
07:39 < openoms> once a contract is signed just need to switch on to confimr the steps, like payment sent, release escrow etc
07:40 < openoms> SEPA has a 6 days trade limit to wait until the banks work
07:40 < belcher> i suppose a possible workaround is to include in the contract a meeting time when both participants will be online so do the LN transfer
07:40 < belcher> LN can do multisig, so thats no problem
07:40 < belcher> not sure what that looks like for wallets adopting it though
07:41 < openoms> seems like they would need to open channel to each other as well. Can't trust in routing millions of sats between some fringe nodes.
07:42 < belcher> why not? routing is very low trust
07:42 < belcher> they can only stall i think
07:43 < openoms> yes, not because of losing funds, but for failing payments
07:43 < openoms> liquidity issues
07:43 < openoms> only direct channels are assured to route high amounts
07:44 < openoms> but sure once using a low fee system don't need to trade thousands of Euros worth
07:44 < openoms> currently even better to stay under the new 250 EUR limit
07:45 < belcher> yep the hope is that "low amounts" ends up getting higher and higher until its like 20k eur one day
07:45 < openoms> but poring to LN would be a huge rewrite whereas Liquid is almost just bitcoin
07:45 < belcher> yep
07:46 < openoms> that's why I was thinking JM could benefit too  with rather small mount of work needed for PoC
07:46 < openoms> need to look into an Elements testnet mode or something
08:10 < waxwing> i was thinking about "locallightning", cash for LN transfers in person, the biggest fly in the ointment is reliability of LN payments. even a 15% failure rate (pretty realistic) would be a real pain in the ass
08:12 < belcher> i suppose if your LN payment fails you have to do an on-chain transaction (and you can do a payment and open a LN channel in the same transaction for the same miner fee)
08:13 < belcher> a downside is then presumably that guy you sold to now has a channel open to your smartphone wallet, so when you lose data he cant make payments
08:14 < waxwing> i feel like the way things are going the police would do stings even on like $200 trades, and cash is just going away generally, i may be just reminiscing about the Localbitcoins old days here :)
08:14 < waxwing> and yeah i thought about the onchain fallback, i agree it just looks crap
08:14 < waxwing> a centralized third party fallback actually feels like a better idea.
08:15 < waxwing> like if you kept a direct channel with a central counterparty but it was optional, you could first try normal routing then get credited otherwise. some weird setup like that.
08:17 < belcher> another possibility is the two parties open a channel between them before they actually meet up, and it gets confirmed overnight
08:17 < belcher> however if the trade is then a no-show then its a waste of miner fees
08:18 < waxwing> yeah that seems too much even if it works, it gives away one of LN's advantages, i.e. using routing with your existing channel(s)
08:18 < belcher> you'd only do this if you dont already have a route
08:18 < belcher> i wonder if LN can do some kind of test payment, where you test to see if the payment would succeed before actually doing it... crucially you could do this before meeting up
08:18 < waxwing> oh; but you have to plan in advance? even if i can find a route to you for a payment right now, doesn't mean it'll work in 4 hours.
08:19 < belcher> yes, right
08:19 < waxwing> yeah i think that is a thing. but also the problem with it is a thing :)
08:28 < openoms> @belcher probing is thing already and used often by advanced platform like Strike (afaik), certainly very obvious in Balance of Satoshis `bos rebalance` and even `bos pay`
08:28 < belcher> ah
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--- Log closed Tue Apr 27 00:00:38 2021