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06:39 < mtrythall> hello folks - i'm with BotBot.me, following up on an old request to log this channel
06:39 < mtrythall> any OPs around?
06:43 < aj> mtrythall: rusty'll be around in 7 or 8 hours probably
06:43 < mtrythall> Darn. Looks like a major timezone issue between us.
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13:16 < rusty> gwillen: Hmm, looks like botbot.me woke up.  If you see mtrythall around, (he said he'd be on #lightning-dev) please ask to connect logging.
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13:28 < gwillen> rusty: will do
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16:35 < rusty> aj: will enhance C test onion to take "--generate <pubkey>..." or "--decode <pubkey>".  If you want to do the same on the python side I'll sew in some automated tests.
16:39 < rusty> Make that --decode <privkey>
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18:34 < rusty> aj: pushed...
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19:17 < mtrythall> hey gwillen - you around?
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19:23 < mtrythall> [b__b] ping
19:23 < [b__b]> Are you in need of my services, mtrythall?
19:23 < mtrythall> [b__b] help
19:23 < [b__b]> Available plugins: bangmotivate, help, last_seen, ping, logger (https://botbot.me/freenode/lightning-dev/help/)
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21:24 < gwillen> [b__b]: hello there
21:24 < gwillen> [b__b]: help
21:24 < [b__b]> Available plugins: bangmotivate, help, last_seen, ping, logger (https://botbot.me/freenode/lightning-dev/help/)
21:26 < gwillen> [b__b]: well, mtrythall is gone, but for the record since this is being logged: I am an op and I approve this logging. :-)
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22:22 < aj> rusty: hey, onion-key is using flip_key unnecessarily afaics?
22:37 < matsjj> aj, can you explain to me why we do the 0-padding?
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22:39 < aj> matsjj: padding is to keep the message length constant so it doesn't leak information about how many hops there are still to go
22:39 < aj> matsjj: padding is encrypted 0's, which is hopefully good enough to mean you can't tell whether it's padding or not
22:39 < matsjj> ahhh... so we don't use random blob anymore, right?
22:40 < matsjj> hmm
22:40 < matsjj> thinking about it - I might like it. it's a lot of data to carry around though
22:40 < aj> matsjj: random padding would be unpredictable, so the hmac's wouldn't be able to be verified
22:40 < aj> matsjj: the current demo is <4096 bytes for 20 hops -- ie fits in a packet
22:40 < matsjj> that's the next thing you can explain to me =)
22:41 < matsjj> as far as I can tell they serve for signature reasons?
22:41 < matsjj> hm yea thats very reasonable
22:41 < aj> matsjj: yeah, hmac is a keyed checksum
22:42 < matsjj> and why do we use it instead of a normal signature?
22:44 < matsjj> aj, we do send our pubkey (temporary or not) with it anyways, don't we? theres so much crypto stuff I have to read my way into I guess..
22:45 < aj> matsjj: we send a hop-specific temporary pubkey (ie, one tht can't actually be traced back to our real identity)
22:46 < aj> matsjj: aes+hmac is a "normal" way of doing symmetric crypto with a signature
22:46 < matsjj> aj, yea exactly - can't we just send a signature then? 
22:46 < aj> matsjj: it's cheaper/faster than an ecdsa signature i think
22:46 < matsjj> I see
22:47 < aj> matsjj: (i haven't looked into how an ecdsa sig actually works, so i'm guessing a bit here)
22:47 < matsjj> so no major obstactles ... just the way things seems to work
22:47 < aj> matsjj: oh, hmac means that only the intended recipient can verify the signature
22:48 < aj> matsjj: (don't know if that's actually a win, but it'd a difference compared to doing an ecdsa sig instead)
22:49 < matsjj> aj, another thing - have we thought about normal messages so far? as far as I can see we also need a way to send and receive normal messages before doing a htlc-payment
22:49 < matsjj> aj, ah interesting+
22:50 < matsjj> aj, so without the receiver the sender can always deny to have created that message
22:50 < aj> matsjj: normal messages as in just between the two parties on a channel? onion stuff is just for routed messages where there isn't a direct connection
22:51 < matsjj> yes, but using onion just for the payments would be pointless if they still have to figure out the payment details over normal communications. 
22:51 < matsjj> that implies that the payment request code(address) does not contain any information about the payment like the hash
22:56 < aj> matsjj: you have to have some way of starting a txn before you can use onion routing, either so the consumer can get the merchant's lightning address/route, or so the merchant can get the consumer's
22:56 < matsjj> I'm thinking that we need a communication channel over the network before each payment, where one can transmit stuff like the htlc-hash, a signature for a pay-to-contract, some routing options.. this way the scannable qr code only needs to consists of a way to start that communication
22:56 < aj> matsjj: i figure it'll look like "to buy this, pay $5 to <lightning address/route> with #R=<#r>"
22:57 < matsjj> but then we have one-time addresses again :/
22:57 < aj> matsjj: you can't establish a communication channel (ugh, channel overload...) without knowing who you want to talk to
22:58 < aj> matsjj: i'm thinking of "lightning address" as being multi-use and probably long term
22:59 < matsjj> the receiver can select a few hops away from him a node and onion-encrypt the way to him in the qr-code. the user scans it and can send a message to that node with the onion-routing included
22:59 < matsjj> so we can make use of the established network
23:00 < matsjj> aj, yea me too, but including the #R does defeat that point. it also means that anyone else trying this qrcode can lose money to a node in between 
23:01 < aj> matsjj: sure, i'm assuming a qr code containing R is like a pricetag; so it's unique to the product (either stuck to it physically, or generated for each digital good)
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23:44 < matsjj> aj, I'm still not completely convinced with every node padding.. is there any downside of having the sender added another 100-400bytes of 0s in the core of the onion? that way no one can tell how many nodes there are to come and the receiver also can't tell how far the sender is
23:45 < matsjj> and as you described in the mailing list, there are some problems when rerouting (although I find the concept difficult - how do we deal with fees in case of a rerouting? the receiver just have to pay them?)
23:50 < aj> matsjj: you can estimate how much padding was added originally, and subtract that from the length you've got to get an estimate of how many hops still to go
23:50 < aj> matsjj: the rerouter has to pay the fees, presumably out of whatever fees he was originally going to be paid
23:51 < matsjj> estimate? it will be completely random, whether the sender added 40 or 400 bytes 
23:53 < aj> so if you receive something that's 168 bytes you know with 100% certainty you're the last hop; if you receive something with 296-423 bytes you're 50/50 on being the last hop or 2nd last hop, etc
23:55 < matsjj> hm indeed ... doing it correctly would not even save any bytes compared to the padding