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12:24 -githubby:#lightning-dev- [lightning] rustyrussell pushed 148 new commits to master: https://git.io/vzz7S
12:24 -githubby:#lightning-dev- lightning/master 45e0ab1 Rusty Russell: Merge branch 'onion'
12:24 -githubby:#lightning-dev- lightning/master deb2e7b Rusty Russell: daemon/jsmn: Add submodule for jsmn....
12:24 -githubby:#lightning-dev- lightning/master 0ef2b9a Rusty Russell: test-cli: fix htlc balance on fulfill, and add assert that total is invariant....
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14:27 -githubby:#lightning-dev- [lightning] rustyrussell created fix-HACKING (+1 new commit): https://git.io/vzgcW
14:27 -githubby:#lightning-dev- lightning/fix-HACKING 8e30692 Rusty Russell: Correct the formatting of HACKING.md; add top-level files reference....
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14:40 -githubby:#lightning-dev- lightning/master 8f18ca9 Denis Gorbachev: Minor fixes
14:40 -githubby:#lightning-dev- lightning/master 329f4f7 Rusty Russell: Correct the formatting of HACKING.md; add top-level files reference....
14:47 < rusty> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2016-January/000406.html
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15:01 < Lauda> rusty
15:01 < Lauda> does LN need an increase in block size to become really effective? What would be the 'tps' at 1 MB?
15:03 < maaku> no and infinity
15:06 < Lauda> Wasn't there some paper once saying that it required ~140MB blocks to scale to Visa?
15:06 < Lauda> Why has this changed?
15:07 < maaku> Lauda: it hasn't and those are numbers out of a hat
15:07 < Lauda> Don't users need to create a transaction to open a channel/close it; i.e. transacting on the main chain?
15:07 < maaku> i get very upset that Joseph ever published such nubmers :\
15:08 < Lauda> If the total amount of
15:08 < Lauda> transactions on the main chain is limited
15:08 < maaku> Lauda: if you and I have a payment channel, we can exchange an infinite number of transactions before settling on the chain, if we wanted
15:08 < Lauda> Basically the only possible limitation would be
15:08 < Lauda> channels opened/close per second?
15:08 < Lauda> not tps?
15:08 < maaku> on chain transactions are only needed for opening/closing channels and arbitration
15:08 < maaku> and opening, closing channels and arbitration is only ever needed for external reasons
15:09 < maaku> so you have to make a ton of assumptions about how many channels people have, how often they change them, how often they are exhausted, of often people try to cheat, etc.
15:10 < maaku> pick random numbers for all of that, multiply together and you get a number like ~140MB
15:10 < maaku> but I could also pick other random numbers and get numbers like 1.4GB or 14MB
15:10 < Lauda> But in order for me to start using LN, I'd have to open a channel. If the blocks (hypothetically speaking) are full, there's a chance that opening a channel and settling on the main chain might be "expensive" (fee wise in comparison to now)?
15:11 < maaku> Lauda: opening a channel is the same as any P2SH transaction. closing a channel is roughly the same size as a multisig redeem
15:13 < Lauda> I understand that.
15:13 < Lauda> I'm just trying to clear up things like
15:13 < Lauda> "It would even be worse when the 1MB blocks led to really huge fees for bitcoin transactions. Maybe at one point in time fees will be so high that huge transactions have to be created so that the single ln-transactions are still relatively cheap. Which means who will hold these payment channels then? Corporations and banks? Normal users would only act in the ln-network then? "
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15:34 < maaku> I'm not sure what "huge transacitons have to be created so that the single in-transactions are still relatively cheap" means
15:34 < maaku> I think the disconnect is that they are assuming LN transactions are large
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15:56 < Lauda> No idea maaku.
15:56 < Lauda> Are coins on LN under a persons full control or has the other party an effect on this?
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17:04 < rusty> Lauda: opening a channel means putting coins into a 2-sigs-required-to-spend tx.  So if your counterparty vanishes, you *can* redeem it but there's delay.
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18:02 < roasbeef_> Lauda: the idea is with, LN, we stop thinking about '# tps', and start thinking about the '# of users'
18:03 -githubby:#lightning-dev- [lightning] rustyrussell tagged v0.2-2016-01-22 at 0dcf791: https://git.io/vzghZ
18:03 < roasbeef_> rusty: congrats on the daemon release! lightningd is really starting to come together :D
18:04 < rusty> roasbeef_: thanks!  My plan now is to review your code and head towards an inter-node protocol description.  eg. what crypto, whether we abandon protobufs, etc.
18:05 < rusty> roasbeef_: oh, and what the txs look like,
18:05 < rusty> roasbeef_: then I get to implement Sphynx by stealing your code :)
18:06 < rusty> I mean, of course, by reading the paper and implementing it from first principles.
18:06 < roasbeef_> heheh :p
18:06 < rusty> roasbeef_: I also want to figure out what "v1.0" of the protocol will and won't have, eg. I want the keypair R value replacement, but we can defer multisig 2/3 escrow I think.
18:07 < maaku> Capn proto!
18:07 < roasbeef_> have you had a look at https://github.com/LightningNetwork/lnd/tree/master/elkrem ?
18:07 < roasbeef_> it's an alternative to shachain, and IMO, easier to grok 
18:08 < rusty> roasbeef_: oh, nice!  I was amazed this didn't exist off the shelf already.
18:08 < roasbeef_> tadge calls it a reverse merkle tree, but it's basically the goldreich-goldwasser-micali construction: https://people.csail.mit.edu/silvio/Selected%20Scientific%20Papers/Pseudo%20Randomness/How%20To%20Construct%20Random%20Functions.pdf
18:08 < roasbeef_> a.k.a how to create a psudeo-random function, from a pseudo-random generator 
18:09 < rusty> roasbeef_: yeah, this wins.  Way clearer than shachain!
18:10 < rusty> roasbeef_: where were you 9 months ago!!?
18:10 < rusty> :)
18:10 < roasbeef_> for our application, we also require that given a value from the PRF, a "receiver" can efficiently verify that that value is indeed an output from the PRF 
18:10 < roasbeef_> which doesn't require any changes in contruction, just need to give the reciver F(seed, 0) (bottom left of the tree) 
18:11 < roasbeef_> hehe I was simply an observer at that point :p  
18:12 < rusty> roasbeef_: hmm, you know that the (unused previously) person who makes the most contribution to my prototype gets to name the release... You might get to name 0.3 at this rate :)
18:12 < roasbeef_> alternatively, we could do this with SHA256, and SHA512, using SHA512 as our "input doubler" instead of L = HASH(internal_node, 0), R = HASH(internal_node, 1) 
18:13 < roasbeef_> so for level 1, it's level_1_l = SHA512(SHA256(root))[:256], level_1_2 = SHA512(SHA256(root))[256:] 
18:14 < rusty> roasbeef_: naah, mild preference for single hash fn, also mild preference for single input length, so L=SHA256(internal_node), R=SHA256(internal_node ^ 1).
18:15 < rusty> That way you're always SHA-ing 256 bit inputs.  Though given the amount of dedicated hardware that does that, maybe a dumb idea...
18:16 < rusty> roasbeef_: OK, I'll be AFK for a bit, while I play Chronicles X which was my Xmas present, deferred until the 0.2 release :)
18:22 < roasbeef_> rusty: Xenoblade? :p 
18:26 < roasbeef_> rusty: hmm, I guess one could drop the initial sha256 for the root, given that the seed is a direct output from a CSPRNG, so it'd be all sha512 
18:26 < roasbeef_> also I believe on 64-bit processors, sha512 is faster than sha256
18:26 < roasbeef_> you'd also have less hash invocations total 
18:27 < roasbeef_> ok, final thing before i'm also afk for a bit (gotta do some homework :p): 
18:27 < roasbeef_> rusty: have you taken a look at lnstate? 
18:28 < roasbeef_> the current state machine for HTLC updates I have is blocking, only 1 outstanding update can be pending at a time (a buffered golang channel acts as a semaphore essentially) 
18:30 < roasbeef_> joseph as cooked up a non-blocking state machine, meaning that multiple updates can be pending at once, so multiple versions of the state can exist at any given time which will all eventually be reconciled 
18:30 < roasbeef_> has cooked up* 
18:30 < roasbeef_> this'll allow for much higher bi-directional throughput as far as channel updates
18:30 < roasbeef_> though he hasn't finished coding it up yet 
18:32 < roasbeef_> but, it's fully specced out in lnwire 
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