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08:44 < Luke-Jr> is there a way to do nLockTime *within* Lightning?
08:45 < Luke-Jr> eg, say I want to send CodeShark 5 BTC, but be able to "charge back" up to 6 months later; with the blockchain, I just set nLockTime 6 months away; can I do an equivalent with Lightning?
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09:14 < stevenroose> Luke-Jr, interesting question. You mean theoretically or with the current implementation?
09:15 < stevenroose> Theoretically, I'm not sure. Locktime is all lightning is based upon, but I guess to have such a function, it would have to be carried on and updated for every new transaction. Not sure though
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09:39 < Luke-Jr> stevenroose: hmm
09:39 < Luke-Jr> I guess the real test is whether it is possible to run Lightning on top of Lightning :D
09:41 < stevenroose> That probably is the case. The thing is that with lightning on top of btc, the btc coins stay stale. With lightning on top of lightning, the lower lightning has to stay stale as well, I think
09:41 < stevenroose> Which actually make it just a proxy blockchain and not very mucht lightningy
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10:30 < JackH> haha this is the funniest thing ever, a lightning on top of lightning
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16:54 < rusty> roasbeef: around?
16:55 < rusty> Wanted to follow up your suggestion of a separate enckey for the length fields.  Were you proposing to skip the HMAC for them, or include it?  If it's included, I'm having trouble seeing why we wouldn't just use the same session key.
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20:23 -githubby:#lightning-dev- [lightning] rustyrussell pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vzy9q
20:23 -githubby:#lightning-dev- lightning/master 1e93da5 Rusty Russell: Really enable checklocktimeverify support....
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20:31 -githubby:#lightning-dev- [lightning] rustyrussell pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vzy96
20:31 -githubby:#lightning-dev- lightning/master 6750794 Rusty Russell: Use #if instead of #ifdef (we already use -Wundef)....
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21:39 < matsjj> rusty, what do you think about moving these discussions to a repo (I conveniently set up one a few months ago - https://github.com/lightning-core/lightning ) - mailing lists are good for a lot of things, collaboratively agreeing on multiple standards is not one of them
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21:53 < rusty> matsjj: indeed, I was just looking at that.
21:53 < rusty> matsjj: mailing lists are better for discussion, commit is better once it's 90% settled IMHO.
21:54 < rusty> matsjj: roasbeef and colleagues have somewhat reset the process by implementing their own protocol.
21:54 < matsjj> It does still need some love, but I wanted to check back before pouring work in there
21:55 < rusty> matsjj: agreed... I have to read through their code to see how different it is, basically
21:55 < matsjj> Yea I recognised how it's suddenly lightningd vs lnd... :P 
21:57 < rusty> matsjj: theirs is *70%* smaller!
21:59 < matsjj> rusty, haha wow! Java isn't exactly the least verbose language, but 70% :o LoC?
21:59 < rusty> matsjj: No, 70% letters.  They've optimized out "ighting".
22:00 < rusty> matsjj: I'd love your feedback on any or all of http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2016-January/000408.html BTW
22:00 < matsjj> rusty, ohhh I see what you mean 
22:00 < matsjj> rusty, just writing it up ;)
22:01 < rusty> matsjj: hah, I should have anticipted that, thanks!
22:07 < matsjj> rusty, just saw cjp made his homework already :o 
22:07 < matsjj> https://github.com/cornwarecjp/lightning/commits/cornwarecjp
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22:20 < rusty> matsjj: yes, nice!
22:36 < matsjj> rusty, 'Laolu's suggestion; encode the packet lengths as well' - encode as in encrypt? So pull in the length into the byte stream before encrypting? 
22:37 < rusty> yeah, so he suggested that we use a separate encryption stream for the lengths.  I've queried the exact method above, but not received a response.  Seems like a Nice To Have.
22:39 < matsjj> how does that play with tcpip frames/fragments? Hm - I guess one can get the length by decrypting the beginning of the message
22:39 < matsjj> would make my life a bit harder though for now, as I completely separated these
22:41 < aj> rusty: hmm, elkrem seems pretty good
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23:01 < matsjj> Aaaaand the good formatting is gone - damnit :(
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