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00:03 < digitsu> another potential vulnerability of lightning.... hypothetically, say LN is fairly popular.  If at any point a fair number of miners get together and say "we are not going to mine any Breach Remedy Txn anymore" then that would cause a "bank run" in LN and everyone would rush to close out their channels.  Which would benefit the miners in terms of fees.
00:03 < digitsu> which means it would really be something the miners would be incentivized to do.
00:04 < AmikoPay_CJP> Lightning depends on the miners NOT being a cartel.
00:04 < digitsu> even better, even when the network were to close all channels, assuming everything goes perfectly well (no DDoS's which prevent some close out channel getting broadcast) then nobody loses any money.  all value just collapses back into Bitcoin mainchain.
00:06 < digitsu> @amino they don't need to be a cartel.... that implies they collude and actually GO THROUGH with what they threatened to do, say, selective censorship or whatever.  LN weakness vs miners is just the verbal THREAT of a cartel.  Something that say.... a simple "RoundTable Agreement" has been shown to produce in the past.
00:06 < AmikoPay_CJP> There has to be a "tragedy" of the commons game between miners. Several advantageous features of "vanilla" Bitcoin depend on that as well.
00:07 < digitsu> Bitcoin has economic incentives that prevent the miners from actually going through with something that was obivously selfish.
00:07 < digitsu> I don't see the equivalent in LN security model as yet.
00:08 < digitsu> imagine if just 1 large miner said that they won't mine breach remedies.  Then that may be enough to start the bank run.
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00:38 < AmikoPay_CJP> If one large miner said such a thing, then I guess some people would panic.
00:40 < AmikoPay_CJP> Now if your peer starts panicing and closes the channel, the channel will be closed. But as long as he doesn't, does it make sense for you to start closing the channel first?
00:44 < AmikoPay_CJP> Also, I think the existence of Lightning is probably advantageous to miners: ...
00:45 < AmikoPay_CJP> ... I remember reading a paper which argued that Lightning competes with other off-blockchain methods (e.g. centralized services or non-Bitcoin payments), and that on-blockchain will always be preferred for the highest-value transactions.
00:46 < AmikoPay_CJP> Lightning increases the need for and the use of Bitcoin as a currency, which is good for miner profitability.
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00:47 < AmikoPay_CJP> Now these are all rather vague economical arguments, and actual miners might seem things differently, or have other motives, so I'm not saying this will 100% stop such an attack.
00:49 < AmikoPay_CJP> I mean "seem" -> "see"
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01:30 < stonecoldpat> AmikoPay_CJP: have you got a link to that paper? 
01:32 < AmikoPay_CJP> I'll try to find it.
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01:46 < stonecoldpat> AmikoPay_CJP: thank you :) 
01:56 < AmikoPay_CJP> I think I found it.
01:56 < AmikoPay_CJP> It was an e-mail, not a paper: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2015-October/000289.html
01:56 < stonecoldpat> awesome cheers (e-mail means it is a quicker read ;))
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05:28 < proslogion> how would retroactive invalidation work if the miners are in collusion? I.e., they willfully ignore the instant pathway tx until the time window passes to confirm the delayed tx, because the rule breaker uses something like CPFP to bribe them with fees?
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13:21 < nathan> will lightning network support sending single satoshis?
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20:32 < digitsu> AmikoPay_CJP: thanks.  Though what you are saying (LN is good for miners) is very much economic theory an shouldn't be taken as a given.
20:33 < digitsu> really depends on what stage of adoption we wish to examine.  In the scenario I outlined, it assumes that LN is actually quite well adopted and processing a large amount of txns.
20:33 < digitsu> At some critical point, it can be seen that the fees that the miners stand to earn from a mass panic bank run close in LN will outweigh any new txn fees from more people buying bitcoin just to use LN.  
20:35 < digitsu> the fact that LN security model is reversed (the ability to secure your money depends on your ability to publish a revoke txn), means that it gives miners this extra leverage.
20:36 < digitsu> To which I agree with the notion that LN will only be really useful for micro txn, or money that is worth losing, or less that a bitcoin mainnet fee.
20:36 < digitsu> (or txns that are less than a bitcoin mainnet fee)
20:37 < digitsu> as it seemingly has a built-in self-limiting cap on its adoption.
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