--- Day changed Mon Nov 28 2016 01:07 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.178.68] has joined #lightning-dev 01:08 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.178.68] has quit [Client Quit] 01:09 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:11 -!- shangzhou [uid156782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qdrhhsejtvahlkwh] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 01:14 -!- jannes [~jannes@178.132.211.90] has joined #lightning-dev 01:26 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #lightning-dev 01:30 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 02:47 -!- Grouver [~grouver@53535FBF.cm-6-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 03:25 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:52 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Quit: bye] 03:52 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has joined #lightning-dev 03:56 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #lightning-dev 03:59 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:59 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.178.70] has joined #lightning-dev 03:59 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.178.70] has quit [Client Quit] 04:26 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Quit: bye] 04:59 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 05:42 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.178.70] has joined #lightning-dev 05:42 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.178.70] has quit [Client Quit] 05:46 -!- lclc [lclclc@unaffiliated/lclc] has joined #lightning-dev 06:04 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] cdecker opened pull request #28: bolt01: Made framing and transport setup explicit (master...reorg) https://git.io/v1LTy 06:56 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.178.70] has joined #lightning-dev 07:04 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@80.215.178.70] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 07:20 -!- maaku__ [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the 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[~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:13 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 15:18 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:59 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] rustyrussell created short-packets (+4 new commits): https://git.io/v1tKP 15:59 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- lightning-rfc/short-packets 52b32fc Rusty Russell: [RFC] BOLT 1, BOLT 2, BOLT 5: 2-byte lengths everywhere.... 15:59 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- lightning-rfc/short-packets 1012361 Rusty Russell: FIX! make revoke_and_ack.num-htlc-timeouts size 2 as will.... 15:59 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- lightning-rfc/short-packets fc7cc22 Rusty Russell: FIX! Reword sentence for clarity suggested by @roasbeef... 15:59 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] rustyrussell deleted short-packets at febbb01: https://git.io/v1tKM 15:59 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] rustyrussell deleted extraction-tools at fab307b: https://git.io/v1tKS 16:00 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] rustyrussell deleted open-first-commitment-point at f8ad90b: https://git.io/v1tKH 16:00 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 16:18 < rusty> roasbeef: OK, nomenclature. How about we explicitly call "2: type + [data]" 'lightning messages', as separate from crypto handshake. Then we have 'encrypted' and 'plaintext/decrypted' lightning messages. As separate from terms "protocol messages" "inner protocol messages" "data bytes" etc... 16:18 < rusty> cdecker, if around, may want to weigh in. 16:19 < rusty> roasbeef: I also want to reorder BOLT 1 to talk about crypto first, then the generic message format second. 16:19 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #lightning-dev 16:42 -!- wraithm [~textual@205.197.160.100] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 16:46 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] rustyrussell closed pull request #24: [RFC] BOLT 1, BOLT 2, BOLT 5: 2-byte lengths everywhere. (master...rfc-short-packets) https://git.io/v1ftZ 16:54 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] rustyrussell opened pull request #29: BOLT 01: reorganize, tighten nomenclature. (master...reword-crypto) https://git.io/v1t1H 17:02 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-timkokhnehrtczye] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:55 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] rustyrussell opened pull request #30: Better calcs (master...better-calcs) https://git.io/v1tHN 18:00 -!- btcdrak [uid165369@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xnqfwqxbdcsbtjnn] has joined #lightning-dev 18:30 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] rustyrussell opened pull request #31: BOLT 2: remove attempts to align signatures. (master...remove-unneeded-padding) https://git.io/v1t5v 18:41 -!- Prolog [453f54fe@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.63.84.254] has joined #lightning-dev 18:54 -!- wasi [~wasi@gateway/tor-sasl/wasi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:56 -!- achow101 [~achow101@unaffiliated/achow101] has joined #lightning-dev 18:57 < achow101> can lightning run on SPV wallets? I'm told that without segwit it requires a full node, but I don't see why that would be the case. 19:03 < rusty> achow101: That may be true, haven't thought about the non-segwit case. 19:04 < Prolog> why don't they call them nodes or LN hubs ? 19:05 < Prolog> I'm just trying to get on the same page here, some people say hubs/nodes don't exist ? 19:05 -!- maaku_ [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:06 < rusty> Prolog: hubs implies a centralized structure. Nodes is what I use. 19:06 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #lightning-dev 19:06 < achow101> rusty: the client just needs to know of all relevant transactions right? so something privacy destroying like electrum would be fine 19:07 < rusty> achow101: you need to see if the commitment transaction is spent, basically. 19:08 < Prolog> when you run a node you communicate directly with _all_ other nodes? there's no hub and spoke? 19:08 < achow101> right, so a full node isn't necessary but it just makes things easier 19:10 < Prolog> I mean LN nodes 19:10 < rusty> Prolog: no, you select some nodes at random to create channels with. 19:10 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:11 < Prolog> there's some misunderstanding I guess I'm reading everywhere, there is not a such thing as a "super node" right 19:11 < rusty> Exactly. All nodes are equal, on a protocol level. 19:11 < Prolog> there's no hierarchy design to node communication 19:12 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #lightning-dev 19:14 < Prolog> most people as in every day bitcoin users don't understand this about LN 19:17 < Prolog> is the software out that will let me run a LN node in production style? I can't seem to find it 19:18 < rusty> Prolog: no. 19:18 < rusty> Prolog: there are numerous alpha implementations, and we had a meeting last month in Milan to hash out a final spec. 19:18 < rusty> Prolog: of course, we need segwit on mainnet, too. 19:20 < Prolog> perhaps you can see how the public could get the feeling like they wont be able to participate 19:21 < Prolog> and they will believe voting for segwit is less of a great action 19:24 < rusty> Prolog: sure, but I'm sure you've seen how easily things get hyped before they're ready, too. I'm trying not to Gox anyone :) 19:24 < Prolog> I get it 19:26 < rusty> We're in this for the long haul. Stuff never happens as fast as we want, unfortunately. 19:27 < Prolog> things are just a little of a mess with all the misinformation 19:28 < Prolog> I can't believe it's so hard to get facts out to people 19:29 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 19:31 < achow101> there is always misinformation, especially from the BU and hard fork crowd 19:31 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #lightning-dev 19:31 < rusty> Yes, there's a huge amount of noise. That's why I prefer working on the code. 19:33 < Prolog> that's always what the dev's do 19:37 < Prolog> I'm personally reaching out because I want to help form the consensus. In LTB #316 Roger says if 51 percent go BU that it will fork, which is much more threatening then 75 percent 19:38 < Prolog> https://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/lets-talk-bitcoin-316-another-way interview with roger 19:39 < Prolog> I'm done here on the topic. 19:39 -!- achow101 [~achow101@unaffiliated/achow101] has left #lightning-dev ["Leaving"] 20:00 < Prolog> rusty: Im not trying to direct a conversation to you, you're just the only one talking 20:00 < rusty> Prolog: sorry, was AFK. 20:03 < Prolog> I want dev's just to focus on the code 20:04 < rusty> Prolog: Me too. There's an awful lot of improvements that happen and don't get any attention, though. 20:08 -!- Lightsword [~Lightswor@107.170.253.193] has joined #lightning-dev 20:14 < roasbeef> rusty: so mulled it over and I like cdecker's current PR about rewording the sections in BOLT-1 a bit, and making the encrypted header into a typed transport 20:14 < rusty> roasbeef: Err..... OK. 20:15 < rusty> roasbeef: I already merged the other variant, thinking we agreed. But if you prefer that, let's switch before anyone notices :) 20:15 < roasbeef> I didn't quite get the renaming you proposed back earlier in the scroll back though 20:16 < roasbeef> ah didn't see the merge, so it has padding 20:16 < roasbeef> ? 20:17 < rusty> roasbeef: Padding was removed, but type is first 2 bytes of message contents, so if you want everything nicely aligned, decrypt into buffer with 6-byte pre-pad. 20:17 < roasbeef> gotcha 20:18 < rusty> (BTW, I just started implementing your handshake from the spec, should allow me to give it decent review) 20:18 < roasbeef> nice, let me know if any thing is unclear as you progress through it 20:19 < roasbeef> I should also get some test vectors up, since it can be helpful to track the internal handshake state as it goes along 20:19 < roasbeef> i haven't added the version byte stuff to my impl yet 20:20 < roasbeef> hmm, but looks liek PR#24 removed the type field all together from the protocol messages? 20:20 < roasbeef> or er 'lightning messages' :) 20:21 < roasbeef> ah nvm was just fixing an inconsistency 20:22 < rusty> roasbeef: so I liked cdecker's reorg with the diagram at the top. I reorged to have crypto first, then lightning messages, but I think that diagram first sets the scene well too. 20:23 < roasbeef> yeah it gives the reader better initial context as to how everything is laayed out 20:31 < roasbeef> Prolog: yeh all the misinformation is pretty depressing :/, from what I've seen there's a particualr group of induviduals who constantly spew it as if it were their day job lol 20:36 < Prolog> we know how powerful PR can be, could even be more powerful then good written code 20:37 < roasbeef> depends on the audience, I'd call it more astroturfing 20:38 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #lightning-dev 20:41 < rusty> I should really write some stuff up on routing, and where we see the scaling limits. 20:41 < rusty> roasbeef: so, to return. Are you saying we *should* move type into the header now? Pretty trivial change, TBH, I can type it up for you to merge if you want. 20:45 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 20:46 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #lightning-dev 20:49 < roasbeef> deckers latest PR contains that, so with that theres only one length and one type, both in the crypto header, eith that the lightning message blob can just be thebmessage itself 20:50 < roasbeef> heh on phone so just act likr the typos arent threre :) 20:52 < rusty> roasbeef: yeah, but he didn't fix up the other places which need updating. I can do that though. 21:07 < roasbeef> actually, moving the type into the crypto header assumes that no other encrypted messaging scheme would be used 21:07 < roasbeef> so like tor for example 21:07 < roasbeef> which was one of my rationales for making the two messaging schemes independant 21:07 * roasbeef flip flops 21:08 < rusty> roasbeef: well, it's isolated. You'd simply put the 2 byte type before the ciphertext. 21:09 < rusty> roasbeef: upper "lightning message" layer wouldn't know. 21:11 -!- Prolog [453f54fe@gateway/web/freenode/ip.69.63.84.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:14 < roasbeef> but if the lightning messge layer doesn't have length _and_ type information, how would I parse it using another crypto transport? 21:15 < roasbeef> hence the rationale for the full encapsulation 21:20 < rusty> roasbeef: I didn't think tor did encryption... but if it does, just define ln-over-tor as [2 byte type] [data]. 21:20 < rusty> ie. a tiny shim. 21:23 -!- jtimon [~quassel@186.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:39 < rusty> roasbeef: hmm did you mean to refer to the chacha RFC for your HKDF? 3. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7539 21:41 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 21:42 < roasbeef> rusty: hmm, no that should point to: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5869 21:43 < rusty> roasbeef: thought so :) Will add to my minor fixes as I go through. 21:44 < roasbeef> rusty: so in that case, there would be an inner type if using another crypto transport? 21:44 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:44 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 21:44 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #lightning-dev 21:51 < roasbeef> also my impl is here, might help some: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/brontide/noise.go#L288 (doesn't have the version byte) 21:51 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:51 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #lightning-dev 21:52 < rusty> roasbeef: I'm trying not to look, to test doc. Now I'm yakshaving, implemetning rfcs 2104 and 5869... 21:52 < roasbeef> ah yeah, good point 22:03 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:04 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #lightning-dev 22:09 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:09 -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #lightning-dev 22:10 -!- aalex__ [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #lightning-dev 22:17 -!- aalex__ [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:27 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iasbnfjxkmzofwwm] has joined #lightning-dev 22:31 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:03 -!- vorksholk [ae1cf56e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.28.245.110] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 23:10 -!- aalex__ [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #lightning-dev 23:48 -!- aalex__ [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]