--- Day changed Thu Jan 19 2017 00:00 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25 -!- takaya [~takayaima@KD106186241030.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 00:33 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 01:07 < BW^-> arubi: just some way for (a tree structure of) payments to be processed offchain 01:08 -!- takaya [~takayaima@em1-115-197-74.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 01:09 < arubi> sounds like LN? LN transactions are bitcoin transactions processed off chain 01:11 < BW^-> arubi: well yeah 01:12 < BW^-> arubi: i'd like to understand if it's possible to mediate a payment without intermediary channels 01:12 < arubi> you can connect to the other node specifically 01:12 < arubi> s/directly I guess 01:13 < arubi> maybe I don't understand the question yet 01:14 < BW^-> arubi: for instance by sending a secret key that regards only a subset of bitcoins within a deposit made 01:15 < BW^-> arubi: other node, what kind of node, lightning?? 01:16 < BW^-> arubi: i understand that Lightning is extremely Bitcoin-heavy - each channel is made between two parties and requires upfront Bitcoins. meaning generally i'll be 2+ hops away from another person. so all those intermediaries need to upfront bitcoins corresponding to the transfer size. 01:16 < arubi> BW^-, your scheme sounds very complicated to me, and there's not a lot of info to follow.. yes lightning, as we're making a lot of noise in #lightning-dev ;) 01:16 < BW^-> arubi: what's nice though is that this is real bitcoin that is directly retrievable on the blockchain. that's just awesome. 01:16 < BW^-> arubi: ;) 01:16 < arubi> LN transactions are real bitcoins 01:16 < BW^-> arubi: now. let me describe my Q. 01:16 < BW^-> right. 01:16 < BW^-> "Are there any cryptographic mechanisms whereby you can SPLIT the ability to sign on the spending of a particular number of Bitcoins? 01:17 < BW^-> Say that, if X BTC are held at address Y (owned by Bob), that we could produce some kind of cryptographic certificates for the ability to spend the sub-amounts Xa and Xb (which are sub-amounts of X), so that Bob can hand Cesar Xa BTC in the form of a spending ability of that sum and hand David Xb BTC in the form of a spending ability of that sum - and this way since we're just doing math locally we don't need to bother about telling the B 01:17 < BW^-> Cesar could then hand Eric and Frederic sub-amounts Xe BTC and Xf BTC of his Xa BTC. 01:17 < BW^-> (In this case, there would be a trust model that, what if Bob runs away with the Bitcoins. Maybe there could be a way for Cesar and David to "fight their right" (Lightning-style) on the blockchain if that would happen.)" 01:17 < BW^-> that is my exact question. 01:17 -!- jannes [~jannes@095-097-246-234.static.chello.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 01:20 < arubi> I don't know off the top of my head, sorry. I'm actually doing something else, unrelated so I can't even think of anything that might help :) 01:36 < BW^-> =)) 01:37 -!- takaya [~takayaima@em1-115-197-74.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43 -!- takaya [~takayaima@em1-115-197-74.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 01:51 -!- takaya [~takayaima@em1-115-197-74.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:33 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: arubi 02:35 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 02:36 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:37 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 03:47 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:48 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 04:23 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #lightning-dev 04:34 -!- wasi [~wasi@gateway/tor-sasl/wasi] has joined #lightning-dev 04:53 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:58 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 05:32 < moli_> BW^-, this article might help answer your questions: https://medium.com/@rusty_lightning/bitcoin-lightning-things-to-know-e5ea8d84369f#.6kcqsy3of 05:33 < moli_> BW^-, also lnd alpha has been released and we're testing it in channel #lnd 05:35 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 05:40 -!- takaya [~takayaima@em1-115-195-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 06:08 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 06:09 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 06:29 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 06:31 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 06:36 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 06:44 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #lightning-dev 06:46 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 06:48 -!- takaya [~takayaima@em1-115-195-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:01 -!- takaya [~takayaima@em1-115-195-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 07:05 -!- takaya [~takayaima@em1-115-195-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:09 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:23 -!- jtimon [~quassel@245.30.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lightning-dev 07:41 -!- wraithm [~textual@205.197.160.100] has joined #lightning-dev 07:55 -!- grubles_ [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has joined #lightning-dev 07:56 -!- maret [58d41c32@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.212.28.50] has joined #lightning-dev 07:57 -!- jamesstanley [~jes@pillbox.incoherency.co.uk] has joined #lightning-dev 08:04 -!- takaya [~takayaima@em1-115-195-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 08:04 -!- grubles_ [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:07 -!- takaya [~takayaima@em1-115-195-29.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:07 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 08:08 -!- sstone [~sstone@3.46-14-84.ripe.coltfrance.com] has joined #lightning-dev 08:10 < maret> hi everyone got a question. Will LN lower a fee for a use case where I will pay several parties like shop without them paying me back? I am asking to compare LN with daily use of credit card where I pay bank few euro for unlimited number of card payments. With btc right now I would pay for each payment and there can be tens of such a payments per month 08:17 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 08:17 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 08:19 -!- grubles_ [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has joined #lightning-dev 08:19 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:19 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 08:24 -!- maret [58d41c32@gateway/web/freenode/ip.88.212.28.50] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:24 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:45 -!- BW^- [~Bwbwbwbwb@unaffiliated/bw-/x-2460362] has quit [Quit: BW^-] 08:49 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 09:19 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 09:19 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 09:32 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:00 -!- jtimon [~quassel@245.30.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:17 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:22 -!- jtimon [~quassel@245.30.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lightning-dev 10:39 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #lightning-dev 10:49 -!- AmikoPay_CJP [~AmikoPay_@a83-163-77-195.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 10:55 -!- sstone [~sstone@3.46-14-84.ripe.coltfrance.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:09 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 11:53 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 11:54 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 12:08 -!- cbits [~cbits@2607:f380:a61:650:744c:2ba:7da8:6dea] has joined #lightning-dev 12:11 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 12:28 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 12:34 -!- cbits [~cbits@2607:f380:a61:650:744c:2ba:7da8:6dea] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:35 -!- cbits [~cbits@139.182.205.184] has joined #lightning-dev 12:52 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:52 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has joined #lightning-dev 12:54 < mryandao> maret: you mean like a credit account? 12:56 -!- arubi [~ese168@unaffiliated/arubi] has quit [Changing host] 12:56 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 13:20 < adiabat> BW^: you can split keys in various ways, but this probably doesn't get you what you want 13:23 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:25 -!- cbits [~cbits@139.182.205.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:45 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 13:46 -!- cbits [~cbits@2607:f380:a61:650:612c:fd5:9e8d:60df] has joined #lightning-dev 13:49 < adiabat> BW^: inputs are completely consumed, and output scripts can't specify anything about *where* spends are allowed; the script only eval to 0 or 1 13:49 -!- AmikoPay_CJP [~AmikoPay_@a83-163-77-195.adsl.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:49 < adiabat> BW^: look in to "covenants" for more of that kind of idea, though it's not supported in bitcoin now (could be a soft fork but who knows) 14:40 -!- aalex [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:41 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:28 -!- wraithm [~textual@205.197.160.100] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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