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has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 06:54 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 07:09 -!- MaxSan [~one@185.156.175.43] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 07:41 -!- afdudley [afdudleyma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vahmprpxhcqvcekp] has joined #lightning-dev 07:41 -!- JackH [~laptop@business-176-094-060-178.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lightning-dev 08:41 -!- PaulCape_ [~PaulCapes@ip72-209-228-52.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: .] 08:43 -!- PaulCapestany [~PaulCapes@ip72-209-228-52.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lightning-dev 08:47 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mpjbanggjylooywf] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 08:51 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:11 -!- rasengan [~rasengan@pdpc/corporate-sponsor/privateinternetaccess.com/rasengan] has joined #lightning-dev 09:32 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 09:58 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lightning-dev 10:09 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-shzrcffcpzxbdtsp] has joined #lightning-dev 10:14 -!- jannes [~jannes@095-097-246-234.static.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:37 -!- jtimon [~quassel@6.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lightning-dev 12:50 -!- MaxSan [~one@46.166.168.36] has joined #lightning-dev 14:21 -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ftqmhhbfclkawjfp] has joined #lightning-dev 14:24 < lmatteis> hello! i was curious whether each transaction i make within an open channel, is an actual transaction. meaning that if i'm paying alice and rick, through my channel with bob, are those 2 separate transactions once settled on the blockchain? 14:28 < stevenroose> lmatteis: payments you make over the lightning network are never on-chain transactions 14:29 < stevenroose> the settlement happens when a channel closes, totally regardless of whether or not or how many transactions have been made over it 14:29 < lmatteis> right, my thinking is what the channel looks like once on chain 14:29 < stevenroose> yeah the tx on the chain just contains the final balance of both parties 14:30 < lmatteis> so it's a single tx? so in essence, the fact that i paid alice and rick is entirely hidden in my channel as a single addition to bob's portion? 14:31 < stevenroose> lmatteis: exactly 14:31 < stevenroose> that's why lightning also gives more transactional privacy 14:32 < lmatteis> but don't HTLC's need to be scripted individually for both alices' and bob's R value? 14:32 < stevenroose> wait, what is the R value? 14:34 < lmatteis> i'm talking in context of the Hashed Time Locked Contracts 14:34 < lmatteis> aren't such scripts actually part of the the tx scriptSig? 14:34 < stevenroose> I haven't looked in implementations, but I assumed that a channel is always represented by a single HTLC shared by both parties (so signed by both) with then another transaction each to prove that a previous one of those transactions is invalid 14:35 < stevenroose> apologies for not knowing the terms used for those txs, need to catch up some reading :) 14:35 < stevenroose> they are, but after every payment over the channel, the HTLC transaction is updated 14:36 < stevenroose> so you effectually discard the older one and both generate and sign a new one, which represents the latest state in the channel 14:36 < stevenroose> and then some magic to ensure that your counterparty has no incentive to broadcast the older one that it should have discarded 14:36 < lmatteis> does the HTLC ever hit the chain? 14:37 < stevenroose> on channel closing, I suppose 14:37 < lmatteis> i'm confused whether it's just a contract between the two-parties of the channel, or it's something bitcoin related 14:37 < stevenroose> the HTLC is a contract, which is a bitcoin transaction 14:37 < stevenroose> a so-called "smart contract" -- even though a lot of people consider that a very bad name :D 14:38 < stevenroose> a smart contract is just a more complex bitcoin output than "only spendable by this address" 14:38 < stevenroose> so yes, HTLCs are bitcoin-related, they are real bitcoin transactions 14:38 < stevenroose> that are just not broadcast to the network 14:39 < stevenroose> and on channel close, they are broadcast to the network 14:39 < stevenroose> and they just hold the latest balance of the two parties 14:40 < lmatteis> so in case you're paying both Alice and Rick, does the single HTLC between me and Bob ensure i can "publish" the HTLC to the chain given both Alice's and Rick's secrets, right? 14:40 < lndbot1> it doesn’t hit the chain, no 14:40 < lndbot1> unless there is a problem 14:41 < stevenroose> I'm sure betawaffle can provide a more accurate explanation :) 14:42 < lndbot1> i’m not sure of that :P 14:44 < lmatteis> betawaffle: i'm thinking in terms of dishonest parties and hence channel should be closed 14:44 < lmatteis> also, what's the purpose of having the time decrement at each hop? 14:45 < lndbot1> the paper talks about that 14:45 < stevenroose> betawaffle: that's a very diplomatic answer :D 14:46 < lndbot1> it’s a “i can’t remember the answer” answer 14:48 < lmatteis> ok :) 15:27 -!- MaxSan [~one@46.166.168.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:28 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 15:42 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 16:34 <+roasbeef> cdecker: do y'all re-credit trimmed HTLC's as fee payment for the initiator? 16:37 -!- https_GK1wmSU [~deep-book@169.55.27.131] has joined #lightning-dev 16:40 -!- https_GK1wmSU [~deep-book@169.55.27.131] has left #lightning-dev [] 17:00 -!- abpa [~abpa@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 17:10 -!- lmatteis [uid3300@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ftqmhhbfclkawjfp] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:29 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 17:30 -!- zmanian_____ [sid113594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fhmhjufidorjuble] has quit [] 17:30 -!- zmanian_____ [sid113594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-proksecqjnuihkzl] has joined #lightning-dev 17:31 < rusty> aj, roasbeef, cdecker, adiabat: Just a ping that I'm throwing stuff at https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/wiki/Brainstorming 17:31 <+roasbeef> rusty: you see my Q above? 17:31 <+roasbeef> nice the wiki that we've all talked about but was never created :p 17:32 < rusty> roasbeef: yeah, credit cdecker 17:32 < rusty> roasbeef: Yes, trimmed outputs get implicitly turned into fees. 17:32 <+roasbeef> yeh makes sense, just fished out a weird bug after I implenented the mew commitent stuff 17:32 <+roasbeef> well it's explicit though right? as in I as the initiator, need to pay less out of pocket due the the added trimmed HTLC 17:33 < rusty> roasbeef: but it's done *post*, so it's pretty much ignored by lightning. Doing anyhting else was too icky in corner cases... 17:33 < rusty> roasbeef: No... 17:33 < rusty> roasbeef: otherwise you end up with the "hmm, if I include the output, my output becomes dust and so my output is not dust..." 17:34 < rusty> roasbeef: it's basically a gift to miners, which is ~ incentive compatible, unless you've a channel open to Jihan. 17:34 <+roasbeef> mhmm 17:34 <+roasbeef> but what I'm getting at is, will the commitment now "over pay"? seems answer is yet 17:34 <+roasbeef> yes* 17:36 < rusty> Yep! 17:37 < rusty> roasbeef: any other scheme ends up having to resolve a hysteresis loop in the corner case. 17:37 < rusty> (AFAICT) 17:37 < rusty> roasbeef: plus, perverse incentive... effectively dust HTLCs to the funder and paid to the funder, since they would get a fee discount. 17:37 <+roasbeef> yep, re-constructed the loop in my head earlier today 17:38 <+roasbeef> ok, fixing this now, afterwards we should be able to make channels and send etc across (once I get these two other PR's merged) 17:39 < rusty> See BOLT 3: "Trimmed Outputs", esp requirement spells out the exact steps. 17:40 < rusty> roasbeef: cdecker said we fall out on ACT2 of the handshake, but I don't have details (and he's sleeping) 17:40 <+roasbeef> yeh the part that tripped me up was: A trimmed output is considered too small to be worth creating, and thus that amount adds to the commitment transaction fee 17:41 <+roasbeef> rusty: hmm, good to know 17:41 <+roasbeef> rusty: on the lnd side, does he see something like "handshake version should be 0, but got 71"? 17:41 < rusty> Quote: "Each peer specifies `dust_limit_satoshis` below which outputs should not be produced; we term these outputs "trimmed". A trimmed output is considered too small to be worth creating, and thus that amount adds to the commitment transaction fee. For HTLCs, we need to take into account that the second-stage HTLC transaction may also be below the limit." 17:42 < rusty> roasbeef: unf. I don't know any details: we have a hangout every alternate week, andhe mentioned it. 17:56 <+roasbeef> gotcha will ping him later today 17:59 < rusty> roasbeef: he got a channel open with the ECLAIR server (with a hack, since we disagreed over feature bit defs, PR pending); would be great if we could line up a payment through all 3, that'd be press-worthy... 18:16 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-shzrcffcpzxbdtsp] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 19:02 -!- https_GK1wmSU [~deep-book@77.234.42.183] has joined #lightning-dev 19:05 -!- https_GK1wmSU [~deep-book@77.234.42.183] has left #lightning-dev [] 19:24 -!- nayuta-ueno_ [1b51fd79@gateway/web/freenode/ip.27.81.253.121] has joined #lightning-dev 19:30 < nayuta-ueno_> nayuta-ueno_: sorry, it's my mistake. I execute "daemon/lightningd", not "lightningd/lightningd". 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