--- Day changed Sat Aug 12 2017 01:35 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 02:14 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:08 -!- JackH [~laptop@host86-187-162-114.range86-187.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lightning-dev 03:18 < cdecker> Sounds good to me roasbeef I totally forgot to bring BOLT 10 up at the last meeting 03:20 < cdecker> There is one thing missing though which is a way for nodes to announce which underlying blockchains they support/accept channels, but that's a larger issue that needs to be address for the node_announcement as well 03:20 < cdecker> I 03:20 < cdecker> I'll update my DNS seed to use c-lightning with the working gossip and deploy so we have a stable version running 03:30 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 04:07 -!- MaxSan [~one@213.152.162.170] has joined #lightning-dev 04:43 -!- MaxSan [~one@213.152.162.170] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:54 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:56 < JackH> are spiders possible via LN? So that we can map the network and the fee's between nodes? 04:59 < cdecker> Not needed, we push that information to the individual nodes so they can compute routes from A to B 05:00 < rabidus> so each node knows the map already 05:04 < cdecker> Yep :-) 05:19 -!- MaxSan [~one@213.152.162.170] has joined #lightning-dev 05:28 < JackH> yes but from A to B only? Or A to B to C to X? 05:28 < JackH> full map 05:32 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 05:36 < betawaffle> JackH: yep, it's the whole graph 06:07 -!- MaxSan [~one@213.152.162.170] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:21 < Emcy> how can every node have a whole graph when the ln is millions strong 06:21 < Emcy> and what does that mean for privacy 06:21 -!- MaxSan [~one@109.202.107.147] has joined #lightning-dev 06:21 -!- HTTP_____GK1wmSU [~DEEP-BOOK@a7.40.17c6.ip4.static.sl-reverse.com] has joined #lightning-dev 06:23 < mryandao> unless memory bus has infinite bandwidth and RAM is free, I don't see how every node can have a whole graph. 06:23 < mryandao> i'd assume lightning will eventually use something like BGP to scale 06:24 -!- HTTP_____GK1wmSU [~DEEP-BOOK@a7.40.17c6.ip4.static.sl-reverse.com] has left #lightning-dev [] 06:25 < rabidus> it's not that much of data of one node 06:25 < betawaffle> it's not difficult to store a graph with millions or billions of nodes 06:29 < mryandao> why don't we store a total graph for the internet? :/ 06:30 < Emcy> and physically how is that graph collected 06:30 < Emcy> there is no central anything in the LN 06:30 < betawaffle> Emcy: the channels are the connections 06:30 < betawaffle> they are in the blockchain 06:30 < betawaffle> so, the blockchain already stores all the graph edges... 06:30 < Emcy> wait 06:31 < Emcy> how are channels addressed? 06:31 < betawaffle> transaction id and output index 06:31 < Emcy> goddamit 06:31 < Emcy> i need pictures 06:31 < Emcy> i need a picturebook 06:32 < betawaffle> the point is, the storage for the graph is strictly less than the storage for the blockchain 06:32 < mryandao> ^ i dont think so 06:33 < Emcy> so how is a lightning node supposed to run on a phone 06:34 < mryandao> my understanding is that you could build more paths from channels discovered in the chain 06:34 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@093-092-179-204-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has joined #lightning-dev 06:34 < molz> Emcy, dude... install an LND node and play with it :P 06:34 < cdecker> Here's all the nitty gritty details: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/blob/master/07-routing-gossip.md 06:35 < Emcy> and wont you have to know the fee policy and channel capacity of every node/channel in order to build a working route 06:35 < Emcy> where is that stored 06:35 < cdecker> We gossip all that information around 06:35 < cdecker> It's just the KISS way of doing it, we keep it simple to start with and address issues as they arise 06:36 < Emcy> gossip protocols suck on mobile :( 06:36 < cdecker> (it's not like the protocol isn't hard enough as it is ^^) 06:36 < cdecker> I know, but you can defer that work to others 06:36 < Emcy> [because mobiles suck] 06:36 < mryandao> there's a good history of routing design research 06:36 < cdecker> At the cost of some privacy 06:36 < mryandao> ad-hoc networks 06:36 < mryandao> its a very hard problem in general. 06:36 < cdecker> BGP won't work with the onion routing protocol btw 06:38 < Emcy> its all because LN is source routed yes? 06:38 -!- MaxSan [~one@109.202.107.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:38 < Emcy> onion and i guess maybe the HTLC doesnt work without the source routing model 06:41 < cdecker> Onion requires source routing right 06:41 < cdecker> HTLCs should work fine on BGP style routed networks (given enough slack in the parameters) 06:43 < Emcy> hm 06:44 < Emcy> i guess onion is the only game in town still....... 06:48 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:49 < JackH> I saw eclair said they would release a block explorer 06:49 < JackH> for the lightning layer 06:49 < JackH> but still, it makes no sense how something would traverse the entire network of potentially millions of nodes 06:50 < mryandao> I thought it'll just enumerate all the channels out there 06:52 < JackH> but from my understanding the BOLT spec is not a strictly enforced consensus wise, but only compatability wise, meaning I can remove gossip portions 06:52 < betawaffle> lightning isn't a consensus thing at all 06:53 < betawaffle> it's just a peer-to-peer network 06:53 < mryandao> BOLT is just there for inter-operability for lightning clients 06:53 < mryandao> so you can write a bash script to do lightning. 06:55 < JackH> I am quite interested in graphing it all, so that I can identify fee's and superhubs, or super highways to understand the flow of funds 06:57 < molz> how do you identify fees and "superhubs"? 06:59 < molz> suppose i open a channel with Starbucks, i pay $2 for my tx fee on the blockchain, then i buy a coffee which has all the sales tax and cost of a cup of coffee.. then tomorrow i buy another coffee, same costs i pay to starbucks, then when i close the channel, i pay a tx fee to the blockchain, what else should i try to identify in these txs on LN? 06:59 < JackH> I dont think it will work like that 06:59 < molz> how else does it work? 06:59 < JackH> I think you as a person will open and close channels much less than you believe 07:00 < molz> right, i think in the future we can open and close for one tx fee 07:00 < JackH> you connect to the "network" and route your payment, instead of identifying every service 07:00 < molz> huh? 07:00 < JackH> I am just saying that opening and closing a channel wont be something you do much 07:01 < betawaffle> molz: you'll just have a few channels you keep open all the time. not to "starbuck" but to "the network" 07:01 < betawaffle> *starbucks 07:01 < JackH> I see savings account being on-chain and off-chain is everything else, like salary, coffee, stuff 07:02 < betawaffle> molz: is your node back up? 07:02 < molz> has it ever been down? 07:02 < betawaffle> btw, i had to turn off autopilot because it's busted 07:02 < betawaffle> dunno 07:02 < betawaffle> did you update it yet? 07:02 < molz> i did right after we had the chat last night 07:03 < betawaffle> ok cool. gimme your deets 07:03 < betawaffle> PM or whatever 07:43 -!- MaxSan [~one@109.202.107.147] has joined #lightning-dev 07:57 -!- alreadylate [~textual@37-247-1-218.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lightning-dev 08:08 -!- alreadylate [~textual@37-247-1-218.customers.ownit.se] has quit [] 08:24 < Emcy> betawaffle 08:24 < betawaffle> Emcy 08:24 < Emcy> im here to grass up earlygrey 08:24 < betawaffle> grass up? 08:25 < Emcy> snitch, report on, dob in 08:25 < Emcy> and so on 08:26 < betawaffle> greygoose28, i know 08:26 < Emcy> ok 08:26 < betawaffle> want me to kick him or something? 08:28 < Emcy> its up to you. 08:28 < betawaffle> i haven't been watching the convo 08:28 < Emcy> he seemed to be trying to add credulity to CSW earlier 08:28 < betawaffle> :/ 09:20 -!- alreadylate [~textual@c-250e71d5.153-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lightning-dev 09:20 < alreadylate> lndbot1 amaze! thanks 09:36 -!- afdudley [afdudleyma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-iyosmltbzeykiwwz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:37 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #lightning-dev 09:53 -!- AmikoPay_CJP [~AmikoPay_@546810F4.cm-12-1a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 09:54 -!- tito_ [5924d12d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.36.209.45] has joined #lightning-dev 09:55 -!- tito_ [5924d12d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.36.209.45] has quit [Client Quit] 09:57 -!- alreadylate [~textual@c-250e71d5.153-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 10:03 -!- alreadylate [~textual@c-250e71d5.153-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lightning-dev 10:26 -!- alreadylate [~textual@c-250e71d5.153-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 10:50 -!- afdudley [afdudleyma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-eaufyxfsrmnxootg] has joined #lightning-dev 10:54 -!- alreadylate [~textual@c-250e71d5.153-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lightning-dev 11:01 -!- stiell [~stian@fsf/member/stiell] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:03 -!- stiell [~stian@fsf/member/stiell] has joined #lightning-dev 11:24 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 11:33 -!- alreadylate [~textual@c-250e71d5.153-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 11:35 -!- alreadylate [~textual@c-250e71d5.153-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lightning-dev 11:48 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:07 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 12:15 -!- JackH [~laptop@host86-187-162-114.range86-187.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:15 -!- JackH [~laptop@host86-187-162-114.range86-187.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lightning-dev 12:16 -!- JackH [~laptop@host86-187-162-114.range86-187.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:17 -!- JackH [~laptop@host86-187-162-114.range86-187.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lightning-dev 12:18 -!- alreadylate [~textual@c-250e71d5.153-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 12:22 -!- alreadylate [~textual@c-250e71d5.153-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lightning-dev 12:30 -!- D33P-B00K [~PYATIBRAT@91.233.116.245] has joined #lightning-dev 12:33 -!- D33P-B00K [~PYATIBRAT@91.233.116.245] has left #lightning-dev [] 12:41 -!- alreadylate [~textual@c-250e71d5.153-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 12:53 -!- alreadylate [~textual@c-250e71d5.153-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lightning-dev 13:03 -!- alreadylate [~textual@c-250e71d5.153-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 13:07 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:29 -!- AmikoPay_CJP [~AmikoPay_@546810F4.cm-12-1a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:05 < Emcy> how integrated can the process of sending some bitcoins somewhere be with what LN provides 14:06 < Emcy> would it be possible to "send" bitcoins to an address with a wallet that is lightning aware and integrated, but it actually uses an existing channel instead 14:07 < Emcy> And having to do it on chain would become relatively rare 14:07 < Emcy> something like that? 14:08 < Emcy> and also when youre sending some btc somewhere, how is the coin destination logically addresses in LN 14:09 < Emcy> onchain its a destination address, in LN its ????? 14:12 < molz> Emcy, it's like this: you're in a game, you buy 50 tokens (tx on chain), then you enter the game, you use the tokens on 20 games (20 transactions) which is not recorded on chain 14:13 < Emcy> i know how a channel works conceptually 14:14 < Emcy> im saying if i wanted to LN some bitcoins to someone ive never paid before, several channel hops away 14:14 < molz> another example: I pay 30 bucks on chain to open a channel with Starbucks, so i have this 30 bucks to spend, and i buy one cup of coffee a day, for 6 cups of coffee a week, I've made 6 transactions that aren't on chain 14:14 < Emcy> how are they addressed 14:15 < molz> well you can open a channel with that person 14:15 < Emcy> it looks to me like "lightning network" is gearing up to be a brand of its own, that sometimes in future people could be 'zapping' payments around without even knowing its bitcoin. 14:16 < Emcy> that seems weird 14:17 < Emcy> but yall gonna make good use of the unicode lightning bolt thing, so thats something 14:17 < molz> that's not true 14:17 < Emcy> time will tell i guess 14:20 < Emcy> my preference would be if lnd or something came standard with the bitcoin core wallet, and i could 'send bitcoin' [or receive] on any address as normal, and the software handles the LN routing to wherever corresponds with that address automagically and transparently, falling back to an onchain channel open if a route is not found. 14:21 < Emcy> perhaps the only indicator that it was an LN transaction being "Lightning transaction" or something in place of where it would normally show confirmations. 14:22 < Emcy> being able to not worry if it was or wasnt on chain is important too right? Otherwise a LN txns is not fungible compared to an onchain one 14:22 -!- alreadylate [~textual@c-250e71d5.153-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lightning-dev 14:27 < molz> not sure what you're saying 14:28 < molz> LN txs are instant 14:28 < Emcy> yes but howwwwww 14:29 < Emcy> do i know where to route to and how do i authenticate the destination 14:33 < molz> the software does it for you 14:34 < molz> if i have a channel with you, i send you some money, it shows up instantly on your side 14:34 < molz> it's not on chain so you don't have to wait for a block confirmation 15:16 -!- botweb [5cd6b8ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.214.184.174] has joined #lightning-dev 15:16 < botweb> Is there already some way to try sidechains, like on testnet? 15:25 < pigeons> botweb: look at #sidechains-dev and http://elementsproject.org/ and https://github.com/ElementsProject/elements 15:27 < botweb> thanks! 15:29 -!- JackH [~laptop@host86-187-162-114.range86-187.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:34 -!- JackH [~laptop@host86-187-162-114.range86-187.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lightning-dev 15:38 -!- afdudley [afdudleyma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-eaufyxfsrmnxootg] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:32 -!- botweb [5cd6b8ae@gateway/web/freenode/ip.92.214.184.174] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:47 -!- afdudley [afdudleyma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-lydmqjjedaeyqhff] has joined #lightning-dev 16:51 -!- alreadylate [~textual@c-250e71d5.153-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 17:17 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:23 -!- afdudley [afdudleyma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-lydmqjjedaeyqhff] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:37 < JackH> would something like MAST affect the way that lightning can be used? from my point of view it seems as if lightning doesnt need anything extra since we move all logic away from the on-chain 18:08 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #lightning-dev 18:27 -!- afdudley [afdudleyma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-xrcmafyvyrijtwui] has joined #lightning-dev 18:45 -!- MaxSan [~one@109.202.107.147] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:09 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:14 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #lightning-dev 20:43 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:11 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #lightning-dev 21:20 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:25 -!- JackH [~laptop@host86-187-162-114.range86-187.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:25 -!- chjj [~chjj@unaffiliated/chjj] has joined #lightning-dev 21:33 -!- marcoagner [~user@179.177.246.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:44 -!- marcoagner [~user@177.41.201.27] has joined #lightning-dev 22:14 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 22:40 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:21 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 23:45 -!- ThomasV [~ThomasV@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]