--- Day changed Wed Nov 15 2017 00:00 -!- windsok [~windsok@45.63.59.8] has joined #lightning-dev 00:01 -!- renlord [~ry@unaffiliated/renlord] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:05 -!- renlord [~ry@unaffiliated/renlord] has joined #lightning-dev 00:05 -!- meshcoll- [meshcollid@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-qfmjfirebdnaqply] has joined #lightning-dev 00:07 -!- JackH [~laptop@alvira.static.korbank.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:08 < lndbot> roasbeef: ikr, and now the blue matt hair color change consensus debate.. 00:10 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:11 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 00:16 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:19 -!- JackH [~laptop@91.189.61.70] has joined #lightning-dev 00:20 -!- meshcoll- is now known as mesh_ 00:24 -!- JackH [~laptop@91.189.61.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:24 -!- alreadylate [~textual@c-250e71d5.153-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [] 00:29 -!- JackH [~laptop@91.189.61.70] has joined #lightning-dev 00:31 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 00:57 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@92.154.68.134] has joined #lightning-dev 00:57 -!- Emcy [~MC@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:58 -!- dakk [~dakk@62-11-224-211.dialup.tiscali.it] has joined #lightning-dev 01:00 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 01:06 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:06 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 01:26 -!- alreadylate [~textual@37-247-1-221.customers.ownit.se] has joined #lightning-dev 01:30 -!- dom_eclair [~dom_eclai@92.184.96.31] has joined #lightning-dev 01:48 -!- dabura667 [~dabura667@p98110-ipngnfx01marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:49 -!- dabura667 [~dabura667@p98110-ipngnfx01marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 01:53 -!- paulo_ [~paulo_a@unaffiliated/paulo/x-9096421] has joined #lightning-dev 02:02 -!- m8tion03 [~m8tion@81-65-53-254.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lightning-dev 02:05 -!- m8tion01 [~m8tion@81-65-53-254.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:14 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 02:21 < rusty> cdecker: 3 more PRs for you :) 02:26 -!- dom_eclair [~dom_eclai@92.184.96.31] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:36 -!- dom_eclair [~dom_eclai@92.184.96.31] has joined #lightning-dev 02:39 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has left #lightning-dev [] 02:57 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@94.100.224.17] has joined #lightning-dev 03:02 < cdecker> Yay, it's PRs all the way down ^^ 03:03 -!- Cogito_Ergo_Sum [~Myself@unaffiliated/cogito-ergo-sum/x-7399460] has joined #lightning-dev 03:06 < renlord> when a user using lightning spins up a node, would the node solve for a minimum spanning tree to decide on an optimal route? 03:07 < cdecker> Actually it gets announcements for nodes and channels and then runs a local bellman-ford to find a path 03:07 < cdecker> You can't do MST since you don't know destinations ahead of time and MST creates single points of failure 03:09 < renlord> wouldn't many nodes running bellman-ford also greedily select a route that charges the least fees? 03:10 < cdecker> That's assuming they have the same source and destination (for the exact same path) 03:10 < cdecker> In reality paths will most likely have different sources and destinations 03:11 < cdecker> But the problem is with weakly connected components with many transfers across that weak connection 03:11 < cdecker> We add some randomization into the mix, both for stability to avoid hot paths and to better protect the privacy 03:12 < cdecker> Long term nodes are incentivized to increase fees on the weak connections, giving other nodes the possibility to create new connections between the components and thus reducing the contention 03:12 < cdecker> It should all be self-stabilizing if you consider the fees as a balancing/signaling mechanism 03:14 < renlord> so how does a node know if a path is "hot" at any given time? 03:14 < renlord> and decides pre-maturely to avoid routing via said path 03:16 < cdecker> We always randomize, the active feedback comes from fee hikes and failure rates 03:16 < cdecker> We actively communicate fees in the network, with some delay, but eventually it stabilizes 03:17 < cdecker> The failure rate is a more direct probe for activity and will tell you exactly which channel failed to forward your payment 03:17 < renlord> but this randomization is a client-side initiative and its not necessarily required to be compliant with the lightning-rfcs yes? 03:19 < paulo_> if I run a lightning node, the private key must always be in that node, right? 03:20 < cdecker> renlord, yes, it is up to the client to route correctly, hence we have it handle this (it's also required by the onion routing proto, since it's the only node that actually gets to see the whole route) 03:21 < cdecker> paulo_, yes, in order to update the channel's state you need to have some way of signing for these updates (and sign some other messages as well) 03:21 < paulo_> okay. I hope this can be integrated with hardware that signs the channel state 03:21 < cdecker> So a lightning node has about the security you can expect a hot-wallet to have (don't put your life-savings in it!!!) 03:22 < renlord> i understand that in tor, there's a strong incentive for the client to randomize since anonymising your origin is the key driver of using Tor 03:22 < renlord> however, the same objectives may not necessarily apply for lightning 03:22 < cdecker> We have plans to add support for physical HSMs and outsource signing, but there's only so much you can do, without implementing the whole protocol in an enclave 03:23 < cdecker> renlord, right, but that's your choice, want lower fees? then you run the risk of using a contended path that may fail your transfer 03:23 < paulo_> ah that's true. a hacked machine that has access to the HSM will be able to sign transactions 03:24 < cdecker> paulo_, we do have ideas on how to partially secure this, but it's a tradeoff 03:24 < cdecker> The HSM could keep track of incoming and outgoing transfers and only automatically sign outgoing transfers if it had a matching incoming one 03:25 < cdecker> But that's still very much a wide unexplored field of tradeoffs 03:29 < renlord> cdecker: thanks for the responses 03:31 < cdecker> No problem ^^ 03:31 < paulo_> so if everyone puts hot wallet amounts in LN, everyone will only be able to route hot wallet amounts, right? 03:33 < cdecker> Right 03:33 < cdecker> Hence micropayments :-) 03:33 < paulo_> ohh. LN is designed for micropayments only 03:33 < paulo_> i was assuming all txns will get routed 03:34 < cdecker> Not really, but we encourage people to start small 03:34 < cdecker> If you find a path between source and destination with the required capacity you could route millions over it 03:34 < cdecker> But that'd take a lot more work to secure those nodes since they become interesting for attacker 03:35 < cdecker> s/attacker/attackers/ 03:36 < cdecker> Plus we now have a fee that is proportional to the transferred amount, so we'll have a natural cross-over point after which the per-size fee of an on-chain transaction is simply cheaper 03:37 < renlord> cdecker: oo, so settlement transactions dont pay standard feerates? 03:38 < cdecker> Unilateral close uses higher fees to guarantee timely confirmations, collaborative close uses normal fees 03:39 < cdecker> No I was talking about fees on off-chain transfers, not how they get represented and settled on-chain 03:39 < cdecker> Each node charges a fee for the service to forward an HTLC 03:40 < cdecker> It's basically there to compensate for the opportunity cost of using funds in a channel 03:40 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:40 * paulo_ buys a raspberry pi for an LN node 03:42 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 04:04 < renlord> cdecker: is there some recommended upper bound limit for lightning channels? 04:06 < cdecker> Our implementations currently cap at 2^32 millisatoshis, i.e., 0.04 bitcoins 04:06 < cdecker> That should be around 200 bucks in your wallet 04:07 < cdecker> But you can disable that upper bound if you feel adventurous :-) 04:10 < renlord> :-P 04:21 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] renlord opened pull request #273: Update 05-onchain.md (master...master) https://git.io/vFXv8 04:22 -!- dabura667 [~dabura667@p98110-ipngnfx01marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:23 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@093-092-177-014-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:54 -!- dakk [~dakk@62-11-224-211.dialup.tiscali.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:59 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:00 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lightning-dev 05:32 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@94.100.224.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:35 < paulo_> let's say A is sending coins to C via LN, and a route looks like this: A<->B<->C 05:36 < paulo_> does B need to use the same public key for the channels to A and C? 05:37 < paulo_> or is it not a restriction? 05:56 -!- alreadylate [~textual@37-247-1-221.customers.ownit.se] has quit [] 06:45 -!- alreadylate [~textual@217-209-128-92-no94.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lightning-dev 06:46 -!- jtimon [~quassel@164.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lightning-dev 06:52 -!- alreadylate [~textual@217-209-128-92-no94.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:08 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #lightning-dev 07:37 -!- jjones [86b51d20@gateway/web/freenode/ip.134.181.29.32] has joined #lightning-dev 07:39 -!- jjones [86b51d20@gateway/web/freenode/ip.134.181.29.32] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:40 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vhverfnnceiolawe] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 07:40 -!- akrmn [~akrmn@80.red-213-99-71.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has joined #lightning-dev 07:55 < cdecker> Nope, we distinguish a channel key from a node key, channel keys need to be available all the time while node keys only for certain operations 07:59 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:00 -!- paulo_ [~paulo_a@unaffiliated/paulo/x-9096421] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:25 -!- dom_eclair [~dom_eclai@92.184.96.31] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:37 -!- JackH [~laptop@91.189.61.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:38 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@94.100.224.17] has joined #lightning-dev 08:44 < mlz> cdecker, is he asking if one node can open many channels? 08:51 -!- JackH [~laptop@alvira.static.korbank.pl] has joined #lightning-dev 09:07 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #lightning-dev 09:11 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@94.100.224.17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:14 < cdecker> More whether all channels are secured by the same private key 09:22 -!- jb55 [~jb55@208.98.200.100] has joined #lightning-dev 09:29 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:29 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 09:34 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:44 -!- paulo_ [~paulo_a@unaffiliated/paulo/x-9096421] has joined #lightning-dev 09:44 < paulo_> http://blog.lightning.engineering/announcement/2017/10/12/test-blitz.html 09:44 < paulo_> ^ trying that out to have a 1st taste of lightning... 10:08 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 10:21 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@92.154.68.134] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 10:26 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mbqpgzolekltktkm] has joined #lightning-dev 10:37 < paulo_> now at 1m.. 10:38 < paulo_> oops wrong channel 10:55 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:00 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has joined #lightning-dev 11:03 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gbdofvznxcnpvcaa] has joined #lightning-dev 11:08 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:08 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 11:44 -!- 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[uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gbdofvznxcnpvcaa] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 16:22 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hjojabgfvtcxamsj] has joined #lightning-dev 16:54 -!- jb55 [~jb55@208.98.200.100] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:58 -!- dabura667 [~dabura667@p98110-ipngnfx01marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 16:59 <+roasbeef> cdecker: heads uplnd master now has a --trickledelay param which controls the interval in which the announcements are flushed, default was 300ms or so, but we've bumped that up to seconds 17:21 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:23 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Ylbam, zmanian, inara, cryptosoap, mesh_, gijensen, warren, maaku, BashCo, hsmiths, (+71 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 17:28 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 17:28 -!- Netsplit over, joins: luke-jr, warren, BlueMatt, 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