--- Day changed Wed Jan 31 2018 00:02 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 00:17 -!- mughat [~textual@x1-6-28-c6-8e-30-bf-4a.cpe.webspeed.dk] has joined #lightning-dev 00:21 -!- beeteecee [~beeteecee@199.66.90.113] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:28 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has joined #lightning-dev 00:34 -!- nickler [~nickler@185.12.46.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:36 -!- nickler [~nickler@185.12.46.130] has joined #lightning-dev 01:00 -!- jhbh [75c928fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.117.201.40.252] has joined #lightning-dev 01:01 -!- jhbh [75c928fc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.117.201.40.252] has quit [Client Quit] 01:03 -!- capa66 [capa66@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/capa66] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:06 -!- Cogito_Ergo_Sum [~Myself@unaffiliated/cogito-ergo-sum/x-7399460] has quit [] 01:07 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:09 -!- foobar_salesman [3e320671@gateway/web/freenode/ip.62.50.6.113] has joined #lightning-dev 01:13 < foobar_salesman> hi friends... is there a way for a lightning payment to send a private key? 01:13 < foobar_salesman> Say, Alice sells valuable data. Bob wants to buy this data via Lightning Network. Alice sends the data in an encrypted format, and only after paying does Bob get the key to decrypt the data. 01:15 -!- nothingmuch [~user@213.152.162.94] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:15 < foobar_salesman> If by some magic, LN produces this key upon payment, it would make for a nice and compact layer on top of LN 01:16 -!- gelango [~gelango@117.201.40.252] has joined #lightning-dev 01:20 -!- xocite [local@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/xocite] has left #lightning-dev [] 01:21 -!- meteo [~meteo@52.201.229.182] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:25 -!- gelango [~gelango@117.201.40.252] has quit [Quit: gelango] 01:30 -!- gelango [~gelango@117.201.40.252] has joined #lightning-dev 01:31 -!- RubenSomsen [~RubenSoms@1.217.138.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:33 -!- dom_eclair [~dom_eclai@92.184.96.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:34 -!- rmt [~rmt@ip5b403caf.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:36 -!- meteo [~meteo@52.201.229.182] has joined #lightning-dev 01:41 -!- dom_eclair [~dom_eclai@92.184.96.20] has joined #lightning-dev 01:41 < aj> foobar_salesman: kind of -- see https://bitcoincore.org/en/2016/02/26/zero-knowledge-contingent-payments-announcement/ 01:43 < foobar_salesman> @aj cool, will read it 01:48 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:49 -!- vicenteH [~user@195.235.96.150] has joined #lightning-dev 01:49 -!- miklolFi [~miklolFi@78-27-126-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lightning-dev 01:53 -!- wxss [~user@185.145.38.227] has joined #lightning-dev 01:54 -!- wxss [~user@185.145.38.227] has quit [Client Quit] 01:54 -!- wxss [~user@185.145.38.227] has joined #lightning-dev 01:55 -!- dom_eclair_ [~dom_eclai@92.184.105.103] has joined #lightning-dev 01:55 -!- dom_eclair [~dom_eclai@92.184.96.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 01:59 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rmtnlgolnzflchgn] has joined #lightning-dev 02:02 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 02:07 -!- miklolFi [~miklolFi@78-27-126-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:09 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:17 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 02:28 -!- ighezzi [~ighezzi@212.91.77.38] has joined #lightning-dev 02:30 -!- gelango [~gelango@117.201.40.252] has quit [Quit: gelango] 02:33 -!- gelango [~gelango@117.201.40.252] has joined #lightning-dev 02:36 -!- gelango [~gelango@117.201.40.252] has quit [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] 02:36 -!- gelango [~gelango@117.201.40.252] has joined #lightning-dev 02:37 -!- gelango [~gelango@117.201.40.252] has quit [Client Quit] 02:44 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 02:46 -!- gelango [~gelango@117.201.40.252] has joined #lightning-dev 02:47 -!- gelango [~gelango@117.201.40.252] has quit [Client Quit] 02:53 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:55 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:55 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 02:56 -!- nirved [~nirved@2a02:8071:b58a:3c00:7db5:a942:9bde:2e00] has joined #lightning-dev 02:58 -!- tryphe_ [~tryphe@unaffiliated/tryphe] has joined #lightning-dev 03:01 -!- tryphe [~tryphe@unaffiliated/tryphe] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:02 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 03:05 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has left #lightning-dev [] 03:08 -!- askmike [9182fd85@gateway/web/freenode/ip.145.130.253.133] has joined #lightning-dev 03:09 < askmike> quick question: c-lightning persists state (open channels for example) between lightningd restarts and such? Should I be able to compile the latest version and restart it without when I have channels open? 03:10 < askmike> without worrying* 03:15 -!- tryphe_ [~tryphe@unaffiliated/tryphe] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:15 -!- tryphe_ [~tryphe@unaffiliated/tryphe] has joined #lightning-dev 03:22 -!- meteo [~meteo@52.201.229.182] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:27 -!- jtimon [~quassel@41.31.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lightning-dev 03:32 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:33 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 03:40 -!- rmt [~rmt@ip5b403caf.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #lightning-dev 03:49 -!- ZmnSCPXj [70c6487f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.112.198.72.127] has joined #lightning-dev 03:50 < ZmnSCPXj> Good morning askmike, officially c-lightning does not have this feature. unofficially it gets insane enough debugging the code, so in practice we do our best to make such upgrade possible 03:51 < ZmnSCPXj> no guarantees it will work 100% of the time 03:52 < ZmnSCPXj> (but consider that we encounter a bug on running node, stop it, fix it, compile and re-run to check the bug gets fixed.... just do not rely on this being possible all the time) 03:54 < ZmnSCPXj> after some time this feature will officially become something c-lightning supports, but officially we do not have this feature yet 03:55 -!- dabura667 [~dabura667@p98110-ipngnfx01marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:55 < ZmnSCPXj> good morning ianthius, try "spontaneous payment" 03:55 < ZmnSCPXj> https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/wiki/Brainstorming#spontaneous-payments 03:56 < ZmnSCPXj> I encountered an idea for spontaneous payment that works for current BOLT 1.0 before 03:56 < ZmnSCPXj> Suppose you are A, and you want to donate to node B 03:56 < ZmnSCPXj> and there is channel A <=> B 03:56 < ZmnSCPXj> You want to donate 1000000msatoshi 03:57 < ZmnSCPXj> and the channel has minimum HTLC of 546satoshi or 546,000msatoshi 03:57 < ZmnSCPXj> You create a route A => 1,546,000 => B => 546,000 => A 03:58 < ZmnSCPXj> effectively the "fee" is the spontaneous payment 03:58 < ZmnSCPXj> you are "paying" B 1,000,000msatoshi for the privilege of sending 546,000 msatoshi to yourself 03:58 -!- Guest98163 [~tla@72.135.235.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:59 < ZmnSCPXj> Works with BOLT 1.0 03:59 -!- ZmnSCPXj [70c6487f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.112.198.72.127] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:09 -!- tryphe_ is now known as tryphe 04:10 -!- kunla [~kunla@bl10-85-39.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 04:15 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:19 -!- ighezzi [~ighezzi@212.91.77.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:20 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 04:24 -!- litch 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has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:02 -!- litch_ [~litch@135.84.167.43] has joined #lightning-dev 08:03 -!- litch_ [~litch@135.84.167.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:04 -!- litch_ [~litch@135.84.167.43] has joined #lightning-dev 08:05 -!- litch [~litch@135.84.167.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:19 -!- bryan_w [~is@2600:2108:9:8a90:5a69:d114:68b8:dae2] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:32 -!- sandeep [~d1g1t@pdpc/supporter/active/d1g1t] has quit [Quit: sandeep] 08:39 -!- dcousens [~dcousens@110.140.52.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:39 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yptrrysrpxjthguk] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 08:40 -!- dcousens [~dcousens@110.140.217.75] has joined #lightning-dev 08:41 -!- litch_ [~litch@135.84.167.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:43 -!- litch [~litch@135.84.167.43] has joined #lightning-dev 09:05 -!- miklolFi [~miklolFi@dtpyyyyyyyyyyyyyb0p8t-3.rev.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lightning-dev 09:07 -!- RubenSomsen [~RubenSoms@1.217.138.142] has joined #lightning-dev 09:10 -!- kunla [~kunla@bl10-85-39.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 09:23 < AndyS2> Wondering about something: Say I want to steal some funds by publishing an old agreed upon transaction. The fees for that transaction were already fixiated for the stealing tx, right? Now compare that to my anti-fraud-tx. The fees of that one are still flexible because only the inputs are signed. Correct? 09:24 -!- ighezzi [~ighezzi@212.91.77.38] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 09:24 < AndyS2> sorry, not my anti-fraud if I'm the thieve, but the anti-fraud tx of the honest participant 09:24 < AndyS2> *thief 09:26 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:38 -!- sbong [~sbong@64.191.249.101] has joined #lightning-dev 09:38 -!- sbong [~sbong@64.191.249.101] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39 -!- sbong [~sbong@216.221.228.6] has joined #lightning-dev 09:42 -!- RubenSomsen [~RubenSoms@1.217.138.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:42 -!- RubenSomsen [~RubenSoms@1.217.138.142] has joined #lightning-dev 09:58 -!- a_meteorite [~a_meteori@unaffiliated/ameteorite/x-000000001] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 09:58 -!- rusty2 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 09:59 -!- RubenSomsen [~RubenSoms@1.217.138.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:59 -!- litch [~litch@135.84.167.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00 -!- riclas [~riclas@148.63.37.111] has joined #lightning-dev 10:00 -!- litch [~litch@135.84.167.43] has joined #lightning-dev 10:00 -!- RubenSomsen [~RubenSoms@1.217.138.142] has joined #lightning-dev 10:03 -!- simlay [~simlay@gateway/tor-sasl/simlay] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:03 -!- a_meteorite [~a_meteori@unaffiliated/ameteorite/x-000000001] has joined #lightning-dev 10:04 -!- litch [~litch@135.84.167.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:07 -!- jb55 [~jb55@216-71-192-56.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lightning-dev 10:16 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #lightning-dev 10:20 -!- simlay [~simlay@gateway/tor-sasl/simlay] has joined #lightning-dev 10:21 -!- litch [~litch@135.84.167.43] has joined #lightning-dev 10:23 -!- almkglor [70c6487f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.112.198.72.127] has joined #lightning-dev 10:23 < almkglor> @AndyS2 correct. I wrote a reddit comment post some months ago (too lazy to go hunt) about this 10:24 < almkglor> Buterin was explaining why he was focusing on sharding (Ethereumese for sidechains) rather than state channel contracts ("payment channel networks") like Raiden ("Lightning") 10:25 < almkglor> brought up the possibility of say 100k channels being brought down by revoked commitment transactions 10:25 < almkglor> So now you have 100k justice transactions competing for block space 10:25 < almkglor> which is why you need block space (and thus sidechains) according to Buterin 10:26 < almkglor> I pointed out that the commitment transactions are slightly larger than the justice transactions 10:26 -!- litch [~litch@135.84.167.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:26 < almkglor> and bringing down 100k channels requires 100k commitment transactions being confirmed first 10:26 < almkglor> so once the attacker manages to get some subset of the commitment transactions confirmed 10:27 < almkglor> justice transactions start crowding out the rest of the commitment transactions 10:27 < almkglor> with justice transactions being smaller and fee-bumpable 10:28 < AndyS2> ah, that's something I haven't even thought about yet. it doesn't just work for a single one, but gives the system security in such a mass-event, too. great :) 10:29 < almkglor> yah 10:29 < almkglor> commitment transactions need 2 signatures, and will usually have two outputs 10:29 < almkglor> justice transactions need 1 signature and have exactly one output, and that single signature is in the possession of the victim 10:30 < AndyS2> why just one signature? I thought you needed to know the secret that is exchanged when a new commitment tx was created, and your own public key/signature? 10:30 < almkglor> roasbeef even points out that justice transactions should really be RBF by default, with the fee bumping up to the limit of the entire channel cap as the deadline approaches 10:31 < almkglor> dunno how, it's beyond my math skillzors 10:31 < mlz> you can make the attacker's fund to go all in as the fee to punish him 10:31 < almkglor> or maybe I misunderstand them, but well ^^ 10:32 < almkglor> https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/blob/master/03-transactions.md#to_local-output 10:32 < almkglor> If a revoked commitment transaction is published, the other party can spend this output immediately with the following witness: 1 10:33 < almkglor> so just 1 sig ^^ 10:33 < almkglor> don't ask me how the math works out though ^^ 10:33 < AndyS2> paying all funds of the attacker means you lose out, though. after all, the thief probably wants to gain something by using an older tx where he has more than in a newer tx, so some amount of the funds in the thiefs output is actually yours 10:34 < almkglor> yes, but if say the correct state is AndyS2=99mBTC and almkglor=1mBTC 10:34 < almkglor> you can put 1mBTC as the fee and retain your 99mBTC 10:34 < almkglor> and 1mBTC fee is still pretty high already 10:35 < AndyS2> almkglor: if it's just a single key, how the thief not spend that output himself? as far as I understood lightning (which isn't far), it's a mixture of my key + a revocation key that I learn later on 10:35 < almkglor> dunno, my maths skillzors aren't up to it ^^ 10:36 < AndyS2> *how can 10:36 < almkglor> better ask roasbeef or rusty or cdecker 10:36 < almkglor> they probably know the math 10:36 < almkglor> but yes, it's just 1 sig 10:36 < AndyS2> please don't highlight them all just because of my question. they have more important work to do ;) 10:37 < almkglor> the revocation key that is published by the counterparty is combined with your key somehow and that forms the actual revocation key on the transactions 10:37 < almkglor> dunno how the math works out 10:37 < almkglor> hehehe 10:38 < almkglor> <--- not a real cypherpunk T.T 10:38 < almkglor> ^^ 10:40 -!- Murch [~murch@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lightning-dev 10:41 < AndyS2> Even if the commitments were smaller than the anti-fraud tx, being able to spend much higher fees for the later probably makes mass-channel-closings a non-problem IRL 10:42 -!- vicenteH [~user@195.235.96.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:42 < AndyS2> so I guess I'll just postpone finding out the details about this until there's a nice writeup involving raw lightning packets being explained 10:43 -!- almkglor [70c6487f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.112.198.72.127] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:48 -!- RubenSomsen [~RubenSoms@1.217.138.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:51 < mlz> hey i'm hoping there're mass-channel-closings soon on mainnet as they should because SLEEPYARK needs a bloody update :P 10:52 -!- kunla [~kunla@bl10-85-39.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:53 -!- kunla [~kunla@bl10-85-39.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 10:56 -!- RubenSomsen [~RubenSoms@1.217.138.142] has joined #lightning-dev 10:57 -!- spudowiar [~spudowiar@unaffiliated/saleemrashid] has joined #lightning-dev 10:59 -!- litch [~litch@135.84.167.43] has joined #lightning-dev 11:00 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:02 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has joined #lightning-dev 11:03 -!- Tennis [~Tennis@unaffiliated/tennis] has joined #lightning-dev 11:04 -!- litch_ [~litch@135.84.167.43] has joined #lightning-dev 11:06 < ianthius> mlz: what do you mean that sleepyark needs an update? 11:06 < ianthius> just bringing the node up and down to replace the lightningd version won't cause channel closings.. 11:08 -!- litch [~litch@135.84.167.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:12 -!- adiabat [~adiabat@45.63.20.152] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.4] 11:13 < mlz> ianthius, oh yeah? and you still can see those old channels in a different state? 11:14 -!- adiabat [~adiabat@45.63.20.152] has joined #lightning-dev 11:14 -!- miklolFi [~miklolFi@dtpyyyyyyyyyyyyyb0p8t-3.rev.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:15 < ianthius> the channels stay opened unless someone closes them, AFAIK. The channels won't even change state just beause your node goes down temporarily. If you change your NODE ID or your keys then yes, you would have a problem.. 11:17 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:18 < mlz> if you have breaking changes in the code and i'm sure c-lightning has had it, from all the bugs we've seen so far, and now if your node is updated with those changes, how can you still be compatible with the old, unupdated nodes without having errors? maybe this is why c-lightning keeps having issues? 11:19 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has joined #lightning-dev 11:20 < ianthius> mlz: sure in the case of breaking changes what I said wouldn't apply. However, i don't think such breaking changes would be very common, and I haven't seen any so far. I have updated my node several times already.. 11:21 < ianthius> remember all three node implemenatiosn are using different code 11:21 < ianthius> i think the channel logic is pretty well worked out ATM and fairly stable... 11:22 < mlz> i still don't see it stable on testnet 11:22 < ianthius> I am a total noob though, just speaking from my very limited understanding. 11:23 < ianthius> mlz: what are you seeing on testnet? I was having many channel closings on testnet, but i think folks are closing opening more on testnet because it's free and it's made for testing. 11:23 < ianthius> my current mainnet channels have been very stable 11:23 < ianthius> and my node was down for almost 5 days recently 11:23 < mlz> ianthius, have you got your money back? 11:23 < mlz> from mixing testnet and mainnet 11:26 < ianthius> mlz: yes, some time ago. once I was told where the outputs were listed it was pretty easy to disable the testnet ones and withdraw.. 11:26 < ianthius> it was only 1million satoshis though. i wasn't too worried. But if history is any judge i would have looked back on those and been annoyed that I lost thousands of dollars. lol 11:27 -!- a_meteorite [~a_meteori@unaffiliated/ameteorite/x-000000001] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 11:27 -!- spudowiar [~spudowiar@unaffiliated/saleemrashid] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1] 11:29 -!- rusty2 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:29 -!- rusty [~rusty@ppp121-45-95-69.bras1.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lightning-dev 11:29 -!- rusty [~rusty@ppp121-45-95-69.bras1.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:29 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 11:35 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:35 -!- rusty2 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 11:37 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 11:40 -!- litch_ [~litch@135.84.167.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:41 -!- jb55 [~jb55@216-71-192-56.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.0] 11:41 -!- litch [~litch@135.84.167.43] has joined #lightning-dev 11:41 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dufeesdstypvpdob] has joined #lightning-dev 11:42 -!- litch [~litch@135.84.167.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:43 -!- litch [~litch@135.84.167.43] has joined #lightning-dev 11:46 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:47 -!- litch [~litch@135.84.167.43] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:48 -!- litch [~litch@135.84.167.43] has joined #lightning-dev 11:51 -!- dcousens [~dcousens@110.140.217.75] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:52 < ianthius> BTW, if anyone is wanting to refill their mainnet channel send me a PM i'll buy a starbucks gift card from you. I'd like to get some channel space open on my side to receive LN payments 11:53 -!- litch [~litch@135.84.167.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:57 -!- dcousens [~dcousens@101.188.228.91] has joined #lightning-dev 12:01 -!- a_meteorite [~a_meteori@unaffiliated/ameteorite/x-000000001] has joined #lightning-dev 12:02 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-53-37.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lightning-dev 12:02 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-53-37.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:02 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #lightning-dev 12:10 -!- litch [~litch@135.84.167.43] has joined #lightning-dev 12:15 -!- litch [~litch@135.84.167.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:16 -!- rusty2 [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:18 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 12:27 -!- miklolFi [~miklolFi@78-27-126-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lightning-dev 12:35 -!- litch [~litch@135.84.167.43] has joined 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joined #lightning-dev 15:25 < BashCo> where does lnd store the wallet file? 15:27 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:27 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 15:28 < BashCo> ~/lnd/data/bitcoin/(testnet) 15:30 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:31 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kjgduhaeljxaplke] has joined #lightning-dev 15:32 -!- mlz [~IRCIdent@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:35 -!- mlz [~IRCIdent@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #lightning-dev 15:37 -!- wraithm [~wraithm@unaffiliated/wraithm] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 15:44 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:44 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 15:45 < ianthius> is the blockchain the same size for btcd as bitcoind? 15:46 -!- kunla [~kunla@bl10-85-39.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:49 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 15:49 <+roasbeef> BashCo: soon to change https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/pull/563 15:54 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:03 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 16:06 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:07 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:13 -!- wampum [~wampum@cpe-107-9-138-59.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 16:16 -!- cloaks [~noty@unaffiliated/cloaks] has joined #lightning-dev 16:16 -!- moctost [~wampum@209.95.51.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:18 -!- wampum [~wampum@cpe-107-9-138-59.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:18 -!- wampum [~wampum@88.202.178.104] has joined #lightning-dev 16:36 < Eliel> Here's my attempt at describing a simple decentralized routing algorithm for LN that's simple enough that almost anyone with some ability to reason about algorithms should be able to see that it can scale. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kE15Hk0LZAoigndQ9srVeBMJ_2-EFA71gHxz_DFo-Ac/edit?usp=sharing 16:37 < Eliel> (I came up with it when I was trying to explain to someone that LN routing problem isn't quite the same as internet routing problems) 16:38 <+roasbeef> Eliel: the landmarks would need to be able to support payment flows for the *entire* network during the epoch, if any or all of them go down, then payment flows are crippled for that epoch 16:38 < Eliel> roasbeef: not necessarily. if there's overlap in the saved routes, that overlap can be eliminated when combining the routes. 16:40 <+roasbeef> Eliel: have you seen speedy murmurs? it gets around SPoF landmarks: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1709.05748.pdf 16:40 < Eliel> also, if there are enough landmarks, the problem shouldn't be that severe. 16:40 <+roasbeef> Eliel: this also assumes that the singular path is sufficient, it's a flow network, multi-path is critical 16:40 < Eliel> I'm not aware of making single path assumption 16:41 <+roasbeef> if we only look at the landmark for an intersection, then allow flows must have them as a prefix, you should check out that paper I linked above, it eliminates that 16:48 < Eliel> You know, I was thinking of having many landmarks, not just one. Also, I'd expect the routes saved in this way would most likely have shared nodes in other places too thus enabling a route without the landmark as a part of it. 16:49 < Eliel> especially if the pulse propagation includes some kind of rules about the capacities of the routes in deciding whether to propagate them further. 16:49 < Eliel> Anyway, I'll read the paper you linked to. 16:51 < rusty> roasbeef: woah, thanks, how did I miss that paper? 16:55 <+roasbeef> they presented it at bpase, spoke with the co-authors a bit 16:55 < lndbot> Landmarks decided by blockhash seems like it would paint a big target on the backs of those nodes, even if they had no intention of being a landmark 16:56 < Eliel> conner: It should be simple to make being a landmark an opt-in thing. 16:56 < Eliel> or opt-out, I'm not sure which would be preferable. 16:57 < Eliel> conner: still, DoSing the landmarks wouldn't accomplish much as the routes can be combined at any shared nodes, not just at the landmarks. 16:57 < Eliel> (and the pulses can be emitted by their neighbors instead) 17:00 < lndbot> are you forgoing onion routing? 17:00 < Eliel> conner: I don't see a need to forgo that. 17:00 < lndbot> how do you do dynamic path combining with onion routing? 17:01 < lndbot> if the paths are combined in plaintext then it’s not very anonymous 17:01 < Eliel> conner: the payer needs to know the whole path anyway. That's why it's the payee who sends their path database. 17:01 -!- aproc [~aproc@2605:6000:e503:8300:29d1:398a:3421:bdfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:02 < Eliel> the payer has the whole path and can craft the onion routing packet from that 17:03 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 17:03 < Eliel> conner: or do you think there's a need to have the paths themselves be wrapped in onion layers? 17:04 < Eliel> in the database 17:04 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 17:06 -!- dcousens [~dcousens@101.188.228.91] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:07 -!- dcousens [~dcousens@101.188.228.91] has joined #lightning-dev 17:09 -!- dabura667 [~dabura667@p98110-ipngnfx01marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lightning-dev 17:11 <+roasbeef> Eliel: sends the whole database? so you assume some sync connection between the two endpoints? 17:12 < Eliel> roasbeef: I assume capability of transfering non-trivial amounts of data in some way. 17:12 <+roasbeef> Eliel: so yeh a sync connection 17:13 <+roasbeef> you also don't specify what happensin the case that there's no intersection 17:13 -!- aproc [~aproc@2605:6000:e503:8300:d0d1:d4e4:4c7d:9150] has joined #lightning-dev 17:14 < Eliel> My primary goal in writing this is to write a description that can be shown to less technical people so they stop arguing that the routing problem can't be solved. 17:15 <+roasbeef> well details matter 17:15 < Eliel> although, I don't necessarily see a need to share the whole database. 17:15 < Eliel> but that requires heuristics that'd complicate the high level description. 17:16 <+roasbeef> if you don't, and theere's no intersection, then what? 17:16 < Eliel> I'm not sure what you mean by no intersection. The landmark nodes are a guaranteed intersection, no? 17:17 <+roasbeef> not necessarily 17:17 < lndbot> only if the peers have identical views of the network topology and agree on the blockhash electing the landmarks 17:19 < Eliel> conner: you don't have to limit the algorithm to just the last one. 17:19 <+roasbeef> last what? 17:19 < Eliel> block 17:19 <+roasbeef> his first point still stands 17:20 <+roasbeef> i think you should specify your algo completely in a new doc, it's just a design sketch atm 17:21 < Eliel> conner: what would it mean for the peers to not have identical views of the network topology? 17:21 <+roasbeef> Eliel: they have diff views, their network views aren't identical 17:22 < Eliel> I mean practical example of how that could happen 17:22 <+roasbeef> what happens in the case of a semi-persistent chain fork? 17:22 < lndbot> afaia, the design uses blockhashes to elect a set of leaders for that epoch. in order for two peers to arrive at the same set of leaders, they need to be in agreement about 1) the set of candidates (which LN nodes are in the network) and 2) which block hash is “current” 17:22 <+roasbeef> well they just don't have the same state 17:22 <+roasbeef> one may have chanenls the other doesn't know about 17:22 <+roasbeef> you're assuming a degree of pre-agreed upon consensus 17:22 < lndbot> they may not arrive at the same set of leaders if they have different views of the topology 17:23 < Eliel> I'd think the algorithm ought to fail and trigger big red warning sirens if that situation is detected :) 17:24 -!- sbong [~sbong@216.221.228.6] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:24 <+roasbeef> Eliel: that's very graceful :) 17:24 <+roasbeef> /s 17:25 < Eliel> I mean, that situation is rather alarming 17:25 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:25 < Eliel> at least if it's more than 1 or 2 blocks 17:26 -!- sbong [~sbong@64.191.249.101] has joined #lightning-dev 17:27 <+roasbeef> Eliel: that's not very workable 17:28 < Eliel> wasn't the set of channels basically recorded in the blockchain? I did assume the Bitcoin consensus can be relied on while designing this algo. 17:28 < lndbot> it’s very likely that nodes will have differing views, tis the nature of gossip 17:28 <+roasbeef> Eliel: this has come up before https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2015-July/000019.html 17:29 < lndbot> every channel is in the chain, but it is optional as to whether or not to publicize it and make it routable 17:30 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31 < Eliel> Anyway, given the nature of how the pulse thing I described constructs the route database, I can't quite visualize how the routes could differ in topology in a way that'd be a problem for this algo. 17:31 -!- sbong [~sbong@64.191.249.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:32 < Eliel> it just combines routes, it doesn't care about the topology. 17:32 <+roasbeef> Eliel: it does care, you assume an intersection 17:33 -!- litch_ [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 17:33 <+roasbeef> Eliel: how about you flesh it out in detail? we're asking questions of things are that are currently unspecified, and are critical to the operation of the algo 17:33 < Eliel> a shared edge in two routes really. 17:33 < Eliel> or shared node if those are part of the routes 17:33 <+roasbeef> i understand that, you're assuming a lot 17:33 <+roasbeef> for example, what the this intersecrted path has insufficient bandwidth for the payment? 17:33 <+roasbeef> or a selected landmark only has two tiny channels? 17:35 < Eliel> while I do find this conversation educational and interesting. I didn't write this thing with the aim of creating a full fleshed out algorithm. Just something that's enough to show people that the routing problem isn't impossible. 17:35 <+roasbeef> check out that thread I linked above, and also the paper 17:35 <+roasbeef> not much to discuss unless you've looked at the prior discussions and relevant work 17:36 < Eliel> anyway, I'll look at them. Thank you for pointing me to them. 17:36 <+roasbeef> np 17:38 < Eliel> I think the pulse repeat algorithm should be constructed such that small capacity paths don't propagate as well as high capacity paths. 17:44 -!- contrapumpkin [~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I'd like to open some more channels, but it just seems so random.. 20:34 < ianthius> curious how people are deciding to open channels on mainnet, given that there are AFAIk only like 2 things for sale for mainnet lightning funds... :) 20:35 < lndbot> I bought a sticker 20:37 -!- tryphe [~tryphe@unaffiliated/tryphe] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:37 -!- tryphe [~tryphe@unaffiliated/tryphe] has joined #lightning-dev 20:38 < ianthius> alexbosworth: yay! 20:39 < lndbot> Well I think I did, I haven’t gotten it yet 20:39 -!- meteo [~meteo@52.201.229.182] has joined #lightning-dev 20:49 -!- bryan_w [~is@2600:2108:9:8a90:5a69:d114:68b8:dae2] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:50 -!- AndBobsYourUncle [~AndBobsYo@cpe-23-240-21-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 20:51 -!- bryan_w [~is@2600:2108:9:8a90:f3b8:cb41:7595:463f] has joined #lightning-dev 20:53 -!- mughat [~textual@x1-6-28-c6-8e-30-bf-4a.cpe.webspeed.dk] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20:55 < lndbot> lol 20:55 < lndbot> @alexbosworth the lizard people ate your sitcker .. lol 21:06 < ianthius> moli and alexbosworth, where are you guys logged in? 21:06 < lndbot> lnd slack 21:07 < ianthius> got it. 21:13 -!- Aliencorpse__ [~andrew@2605:a601:b024:600:2406:738d:9065:9a84] has joined #lightning-dev 21:14 -!- Aliencorpse__ [~andrew@2605:a601:b024:600:2406:738d:9065:9a84] has left #lightning-dev [] 21:16 -!- Aliencorpse [~Aliencorp@2605:a601:b024:600:2406:738d:9065:9a84] has joined #lightning-dev 21:20 < Aliencorpse> does lightning need btcd? or can it work with bitcoincore 15.1? I'm just getting set up with this and would like to help out with the network 21:24 < shesek> lnd uses btcd, c-lightning uses bitcoind 21:27 < Aliencorpse> ahhh 21:27 < Aliencorpse> thank you 21:28 < Aliencorpse> what is the goal of the community 21:28 < Aliencorpse> is one prioritized over the other? 21:29 < mlz> lnd also uses bitcoind 21:29 < mlz> either bitcoind or btcd 21:29 < Aliencorpse> oh rly? 21:29 < mlz> yep 21:29 < Aliencorpse> do I have to specify? 21:29 < mlz> yep 21:30 < Aliencorpse> Ah I see after I scroll down 21:30 < Aliencorpse> "Running lnd using the bitcoind backend" 21:31 < Aliencorpse> thx btw 21:55 -!- jperau [~jason@re.permietech.com.au] has joined #lightning-dev 21:59 -!- sandeep [~d1g1t@pdpc/supporter/active/d1g1t] has joined #lightning-dev 22:05 -!- Emcy_ [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 22:08 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:16 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 22:17 -!- arowser [~quassel@106.120.101.38] has joined #lightning-dev 22:21 -!- sbong [~sbong@2605:e000:1218:370:896e:feb0:7110:1535] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21 -!- sbong [~sbong@2605:e000:1218:370:896e:feb0:7110:1535] has joined #lightning-dev 22:24 -!- Murch [~murch@c-73-223-113-121.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 22:25 -!- miklolFi [~miklolFi@78-27-126-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lightning-dev 22:26 -!- sbong [~sbong@2605:e000:1218:370:896e:feb0:7110:1535] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 22:33 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 22:36 -!- miklolFi [~miklolFi@78-27-126-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:38 -!- litch [~litch@cpe-72-182-55-95.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:43 -!- miklolFi [~miklolFi@78-27-126-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #lightning-dev 22:46 -!- miklolFi [~miklolFi@78-27-126-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:46 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:49 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 22:51 -!- Emcy_ [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:58 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lightning-dev 23:01 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 23:11 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 23:25 -!- gelango [~gelango@117.201.45.70] has joined #lightning-dev 23:32 -!- gelango [~gelango@117.201.45.70] has quit [Quit: Mutter: www.mutterirc.com] 23:40 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kjgduhaeljxaplke] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 23:56 -!- go1111111 [go1111111@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/go1111111] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]