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Is that the same as the on-chain time-out of the HTLC script, or is it sooner? 06:24 -!- dougsland [~douglas@2607:fb90:2929:bc9:6a0a:494b:b09e:1af9] has joined #lightning-dev 06:25 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:25 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:31 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #lightning-dev 06:39 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:51 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #lightning-dev 06:52 -!- mac______ [rm@goat.sex] has joined #lightning-dev 06:52 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 07:09 -!- dougsland [~douglas@2607:fb90:2929:bc9:6a0a:494b:b09e:1af9] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:10 -!- Rozal [uid50160@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aloejfgccnicoesf] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 07:12 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-fhdyqwvylsuxywph] has joined #lightning-dev 07:34 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #lightning-dev 07:37 < bitonic-cjp> When doing decentralized exchange on Lightning, how are you going to prevent people delaying transactions to take advantage of exchange rate changes? 07:49 -!- tinova33 [~tinova@lemoncat.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:51 -!- tinova33 [~tinova@lemoncat.org] has joined #lightning-dev 07:51 -!- douglas_ [douglas@nat/redhat/x-tsheplknbbdhysml] has joined #lightning-dev 07:54 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-fhdyqwvylsuxywph] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 07:55 -!- tinova33 is now known as tinova 07:56 -!- shesek [~shesek@5.102.222.3] has joined #lightning-dev 07:56 -!- shesek [~shesek@5.102.222.3] has quit [Changing host] 07:56 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #lightning-dev 07:59 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:03 -!- tinova [~tinova@lemoncat.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:03 -!- Piper-Off [~P4rtyV4n@2a03:b0c0:1:d0::d0:b001] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:09 -!- Piper-Off [~P4rtyV4n@2a03:b0c0:1:d0::d0:b001] has joined #lightning-dev 08:12 -!- dx25 [~dx25@75.163.118.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:12 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-achmmqytcyqlcpcr] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 08:13 -!- dx25 [~dx25@97.119.181.222] has joined #lightning-dev 08:42 -!- cryptapus [~cryptapus@leda.osmus.org] has joined #lightning-dev 08:42 -!- cryptapus [~cryptapus@leda.osmus.org] has quit [Changing host] 08:42 -!- cryptapus [~cryptapus@unaffiliated/cryptapus] has joined #lightning-dev 08:43 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 08:46 -!- Emcy_ [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:46 -!- Emcy_ [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 08:49 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:00 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-100-15-128-78.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:01 < mlz> bitonic-cjp, what do you mean? 09:01 < mlz> you can't close on your side? 09:02 < bitonic-cjp> Suppose two people do a BTC/LTC exchange on LN. That would look like this: 09:02 < bitonic-cjp> Alice -(btc)-> Bob -(ltc)-> Alice 09:02 < mlz> oh that will be a swap that they have to agree on a rate before they start? 09:02 < bitonic-cjp> Yes. 09:03 < bitonic-cjp> However, if fulfilling the HTLCs is delayed, the market exchange rate changes, which benefits one of them. 09:05 < bitonic-cjp> Bob has an interest in delaying the forwarding of HTLCs towards Alice. If LTC increases in value, he will instead report a routing failure. 09:05 -!- tinova [~tinova@lemoncat.org] has joined #lightning-dev 09:06 < bitonic-cjp> Alice has an interest in delaying the fulfillment of HTLCs once they are all locked. If LTC decreases in value, she will instead report a routing failure. 09:08 < bitonic-cjp> This type of exchange can only be successful either between more-honest-than-necessary parties, or between parties that have no option to use more efficient markets. 09:13 -!- cryptapus [~cryptapus@unaffiliated/cryptapus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:13 -!- neiman [~neiman@77-252-198-108.static.ip.netia.com.pl] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.4] 09:26 -!- tinova [~tinova@lemoncat.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:27 -!- tinova [~tinova@lemoncat.org] has joined #lightning-dev 09:27 -!- tinova [~tinova@lemoncat.org] has quit [Client Quit] 09:28 -!- tinova [~tinova@lemoncat.org] has joined #lightning-dev 09:28 -!- tinova [~tinova@lemoncat.org] has quit [Client Quit] 09:29 -!- tinova [~tinova@lemoncat.org] has joined #lightning-dev 09:31 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #lightning-dev 09:49 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 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11:58 -!- weedcoder [~weedcoder@2a01:e35:2eec:99a0:88da:c0a:751b:9627] has joined #lightning-dev 12:08 < weedcoder> hey 12:13 -!- spudowiar [~spudowiar@unaffiliated/saleemrashid] has joined #lightning-dev 12:13 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@174.127.143.202] has quit [Quit: probably someone interrupted me] 12:26 -!- Emcy_ [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:30 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #lightning-dev 12:32 -!- phrazzld [~phrazzld@45.56.150.246] has joined #lightning-dev 12:32 -!- raspberry_fade [~phrazzld@45.56.150.246] has joined #lightning-dev 12:32 -!- raspberry_fade [~phrazzld@45.56.150.246] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:33 < lndbot> hey 12:37 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 12:38 < arij> looking for a dev who can integrate ln payments into an existing billing software 12:38 < arij> whmcs in particular 12:38 < arij> willing to pay, pm me if interested 12:41 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@172.92.143.143] has joined #lightning-dev 12:43 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@172.92.143.143] has quit [Client Quit] 12:46 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@172.92.143.143] has joined #lightning-dev 12:53 -!- justin___ [~justin@199.66.90.113] has joined #lightning-dev 13:00 -!- phrazzld [~phrazzld@45.56.150.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:00 -!- farmerwampum_ [~farmerwam@88.202.178.98] has joined #lightning-dev 13:01 -!- farmerwampum [~farmerwam@88.202.178.98] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:01 -!- farmerwampum_ is now known as farmerwampum 13:01 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@172.92.143.143] has quit [Quit: probably someone interrupted me] 13:05 -!- farmerwampum [~farmerwam@88.202.178.98] has quit [Client Quit] 13:06 -!- farmerwampum [~farmerwam@88.202.178.98] has joined #lightning-dev 13:15 <+roasbeef> bitonic-cjp: answer is don't use a naive design ;) 13:18 -!- tuxcanfl1 [~tuxcanfly@146.185.169.116] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:18 -!- tuxcanfly 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[~notmike@notmike.io] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:04 -!- tryphe [~tryphe@unaffiliated/tryphe] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:10 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:16 -!- JexDunkirk [~mgallaghe@c-73-216-126-127.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 16:23 -!- beeteece_ [~beeteecee@185.232.22.91] has joined #lightning-dev 16:24 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #lightning-dev 16:24 < beeteece_> Hey guys. I run c-lightning. Probably due to swtiching between testnet and mainnet, the node wo't start again, this is the error message: Wallet blockchain hash does not match network blockchain hash. 16:25 < beeteece_> Question: is there a way to restore the wallet or at least completely reset it to start over? 16:44 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:44 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #lightning-dev 16:51 -!- Aliencorpse [~Aliencorp@2605:a601:b024:600:7ce7:61dc:4a2f:4bbc] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:51 -!- donaloconnor [~quassel@80.111.255.30] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:54 -!- phrazzld [~phrazzld@45.56.150.13] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:00 -!- farmerwampum_ [~farmerwam@88.202.178.98] has joined #lightning-dev 17:03 -!- farmerwampum_ [~farmerwam@88.202.178.98] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:03 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-181-185-197.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 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[6ce97dff@gateway/web/freenode/ip.108.233.125.255] has joined #lightning-dev 21:37 < harry_> hi 21:39 < harry_> Can anyone hear me? (since I could not see the online people list) 21:41 < harry_> Anyway, quick question about revocable commitments: if I understands correctly, A and B will exchange their revocation key once they are ready to move to the next state. What happens if B received the revocation key and decided to close the channel unilaterally *without* broadcasting the transaction. This way B can never get his funds, but A can never get his funds as well. Isn't it a huge risk for A? 21:42 < harry_> Because A can not broadcast his transaction because B has his revocation key. 21:50 -!- weedcoder [~weedcoder@2a01:e35:2eec:99a0:88da:c0a:751b:9627] has quit [Quit: weedcoder] 21:50 < aj> there are separate revocation keys. so A gets an updated state, and can thus publish state N and N+1. then A sends the revocation key for state N and can only publish N+1. 21:51 < aj> meanwhile B is doing the same thing, and can publish state M, then gets an update state M+1 so could publish either M or M+1, then revokes M and can only publish M+1 21:57 -!- cluelessperson [~cluelessp@unaffiliated/cluelessperson] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:59 < harry_> thanks @aj! Does B send N+1 to A first or B gets M's revocation key from A first? B probably don't dare to send N+1 to A first without getting M's revocation key. So I am assuming the latter. But if it is the case, B can decide to disconnect. 22:01 < harry_> In this case, B have M and N's revocation key, A have N. What if B decides to not broadcast anything, in this case A can not broadcast N, since B has N's revocation key. In this case A's fund is lost forever? 22:01 < aj> harry_: i'd have to reread the spec to be sure, but pretty sure they can happen in parallel -- nobody gets the updated N+1 or M+1 states unless they're already obviously better than the N or M states 22:02 < aj> A never broadcasts the revocation key for state N unless it's already able to broadcast state N+1 22:03 < aj> so in that case, A would just do a unilateral close at state N+1 22:03 < aj> (err, revocation keys don't get broadcast, they just get send to the other party) 22:03 -!- cluelessperson_ [~cluelessp@unaffiliated/cluelessperson] has joined #lightning-dev 22:06 < harry_> aj: Thanks! So at some point A have N and N+1, B have M. What stops A from broadcasting N, rather than N+1? Is it only when N+1 increases A's fund, A will get it first? 22:07 < harry_> I thought the point of revocable commitment is to prevent the previous state from being broadcasted. 22:10 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@174.127.143.202] has joined #lightning-dev 22:11 < harry_> In short, Wouldn't it be unfair for B if A gets the new commitment, so he can broadcast both the old commitment and the new commitment? (especially in the case when the old commitment favors A). 22:11 < harry_> Thank you! 22:11 < aj> harry_: nothing stops A from broadcasting N at that point; but in general N+1 will be better, because it'll be cheaper to claim all A's funds (HTLC paying B timed out and refunding A already so one less tx to post to the blockchain; HTLC paying to A already confirmed so also one less tx; etc) 22:13 < aj> the old commitment won't favour A -- if it did, A wouldn't have wanted state N+1 in the first place 22:14 < harry_> Oh, ok, thanks! I guess to make a transaction one should trust another receiving it will honor the money anyway, just like sending money for buying goods. Unless using an escrow. 22:15 < aj> yeah, I guess you could think of the N/N+1 point is where you're about to hand over money in exchange for a magazine or whatever in real life, but you could decide to just not -- you keep your money and don't get the magazine, but if you wanted the magazine in the first place, why would you do that? 22:15 < harry_> Ok, so I guess the most logical way is: if N+1 favors A, A gets it and give the revocation key to B, otherwise M+1 favors B, so B gets it and give the revocation key to A. Only who being favored will take the initiative. 22:16 -!- melvster [~melvin@86.49.18.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:16 < harry_> Yeah, that makes sense too. 22:21 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21 -!- Emcy_ [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:21 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 22:23 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:24 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 22:29 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 22:50 -!- ebx [~ebx@unaffiliated/ebex] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:54 -!- booyah_ [~bb@193.25.1.157] has joined #lightning-dev 22:55 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:02 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 23:10 -!- cluelessperson_ is now known as cluelessperson 23:18 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@unaffiliated/stopanddecrypt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:52 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-181-185-197.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:53 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-181-185-197.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 23:55 -!- cluelessperson [~cluelessp@unaffiliated/cluelessperson] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:56 -!- cluelessperson [~cluelessp@unaffiliated/cluelessperson] has joined #lightning-dev