--- Day changed Thu Apr 05 2018 00:10 -!- aedesring [4dfcc66c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.252.198.108] has joined #lightning-dev 00:10 -!- dx25_ [~dx25@97.119.181.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:14 -!- dx25 [~dx25@67-3-137-174.omah.qwest.net] has joined #lightning-dev 00:32 < aedesring> hey, got a question about funding transaction 00:33 < aedesring> if I create a funding transaction with someone, does it mean that only I lock funds to begin with? Or both of us lock funds? 00:47 -!- tiagotrs [~user@p5DC46E63.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lightning-dev 00:47 -!- tiagotrs [~user@p5DC46E63.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 00:47 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has joined #lightning-dev 00:58 -!- bitonic-cjp [~bitonic-c@92-111-70-106.static.v4.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 01:05 < jojeyh> aedesring, the funds are locked in a multisig transaction 01:06 < jojeyh> aedesring, both parties can decide to contribute a particular amount to the funding transaction, this will be reflected in the first commitment transaction 01:06 < jojeyh> in most cases though it will probably be a single node funding the transaction simply because they need to open a channel 01:07 < aedesring> right, but at the moment I'm running two nodes, and set a channel between them 01:07 < aedesring> from one node, I run 'fundchannel', with the amount I want to lock. 01:08 < aedesring> My other lock just automatically accepts it. I don't have there a choice for the other node to also "cheap in" for the channel. 01:08 < aedesring> I understand the theory is different, but is it mirrored in the current implementation? 01:09 -!- danielh_ [~danielh@speedtest.sbbs.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:10 -!- danielh_ [~danielh@speedtest.sbbs.se] has joined #lightning-dev 01:10 -!- arij [uid225068@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qzelnrewplmgmrki] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:10 -!- antanst [~antanst@62.169.219.213] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:10 -!- arij [uid225068@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nxexpfrmagasvuon] has joined #lightning-dev 01:10 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:11 -!- afdudley [afdudleyma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-twndzwqeddxkdqeg] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:11 -!- BCBot_ [~BCBot@46.101.246.115] has joined #lightning-dev 01:11 -!- BCBot [~BCBot@46.101.246.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:11 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:12 -!- spinza [~spin@196.212.164.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:12 -!- chujev [~chujev@vetr-0291.koleje.cuni.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:12 -!- deafboy [quasselcor@cicolina.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:12 -!- gwillen [~gwillen@unaffiliated/gwillen] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:13 -!- antanst [~antanst@62.169.219.213] has joined #lightning-dev 01:14 -!- chujev [~chujev@vetr-0291.koleje.cuni.cz] has joined #lightning-dev 01:14 -!- gwillen [~gwillen@unaffiliated/gwillen] has joined #lightning-dev 01:14 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lightning-dev 01:14 < jojeyh> aedesring, which impl are you running? 01:15 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has joined #lightning-dev 01:15 < aedesring> c-lightning 01:15 < aedesring> jojeyh, version v0.5.2-2016-11-21-2431-ge25297d if it matters:-) 01:16 -!- deafboy [quasselcor@cicolina.org] has joined #lightning-dev 01:16 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 01:17 -!- spinza [~spin@196.212.164.26] has joined #lightning-dev 01:18 -!- gwillen [~gwillen@unaffiliated/gwillen] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:18 -!- gwillen [~gwillen@unaffiliated/gwillen] has joined #lightning-dev 01:19 < jojeyh> so according to BOLT on github (the specs) currently the protocol only allows for a single side to fund the initial transaction 01:20 < aedesring> jojoeyh, oh, ok. so a bi-directional payment can only happen after the funding side sent at least one payment to the other side, right? 01:20 < jojeyh> according to the spec 01:20 < jojeyh> it might be worth emailing the dev-list 01:21 < aedesring> I may do that:-) 01:21 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:21 < jojeyh> there's really no need to put it in the spec though, given that you can always construct a bidirectional channel with two different channels 01:21 < jojeyh> to begin with particular amounts 01:23 < jojeyh> plus enforcing on the protocol level that only nodes who want to open a channel should fund one (the funding bears the cost of the onchain tx) 01:23 < jojeyh> not to mention it would be super messy to open channels where each node on either end has to negotiate and agree on a good fee estimate for quick block confirmation 01:24 < aedesring> "given that you can always construct a bidirectional channel with two different channels": I didn't get this arguemt, can you elaborate? 01:24 -!- afdudley [afdudleyma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-csjavcodtagnijjd] has joined #lightning-dev 01:24 < jojeyh> bidirectional is the wrong term because just one channel is still bidirectional 01:25 < jojeyh> what i mean to say is that if for some reason both nodes wanted to both fund the channel open, they could just as easily create two separate channels with two separate onchain transactions 01:26 < jojeyh> but that would mean double the cost 01:26 < aedesring> I tried that, I got an error that a "channel already exists" (or something along those lines, don't remember the exact phrasing) 01:26 < jojeyh> interesting 01:26 -!- interfect[m] [interfectm@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-phvamtnrkxhbozsl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:26 < jojeyh> i will say i can't really think of a situation where you'd ever need to have two nodes each fund the channel open 01:27 < jojeyh> nodes will just be opening a channel so that they can begin forwarding payments 01:27 < aedesring> I'll try that again; I hardly understood lightning back then, so maybe I did something wrong:-) 01:27 -!- rrol[m] [rrolmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-cpffpodsdiffqbkd] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:27 < aedesring> hmmm 01:27 < aedesring> a game? 01:27 < aedesring> between two people 01:27 < aedesring> using lightning 01:27 < aedesring> you win - you pay 01:27 < aedesring> you lose - you get paid 01:28 < aedesring> just out the top of my head; it's not what I'm trying to do actually. 01:28 < jojeyh> in that case, according to the current spec, i would just open two separate channels 01:28 < aedesring> if it's possible it's all good. I'll recheck that. 01:28 < jojeyh> afaik according to the spec you should absolutely be able to open two channels A->B and B->A 01:28 < jojeyh> they would be different channels with different ids tho 01:28 < aedesring> Is the "one directional" channel works with payment hubs? 01:29 < aedesring> If I create a channel with a payment hub, can they forward payments to me, or they need to create another channel for that? 01:30 < jojeyh> the payment hub idea would be like a dedicated server that is serving up all the transfers. so all nodes would connect to the dedicated server and forward payments to each other through the server 01:30 < jojeyh> instead of a distributed network of nodes 01:30 < aedesring> Oh, I see 01:30 < jojeyh> bidirectional just implies the way money flows along the channel 01:31 < aedesring> jojeyh, thanks a lot. You saved me really lots of research time! 01:31 < jojeyh> in lightning, all channels are bidirectional because you CAN send money back and forth 01:32 < jojeyh> if you have really fundamental questions always good to read the RFCs for guidance 01:32 < jojeyh> github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc 01:35 -!- interfect[m] [interfectm@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-qmgiccskslabyzei] has joined #lightning-dev 01:35 < aedesring> Yeah, I got it bookmarked already.. 01:35 -!- rrol[m] [rrolmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-hvkdarmkmeolrvwl] has joined #lightning-dev 01:36 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@xdsl-188-155-63-9.adslplus.ch] has joined #lightning-dev 02:05 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aalevjvgheuvrteu] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 02:12 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:21 -!- haif [51c46baa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.196.107.170] has joined #lightning-dev 04:21 < haif> hello, can i use lightning-charge with lnd node ? or i need lightning-c ? 04:27 -!- bsm1175321 [~mcelrath@c-24-61-245-53.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 05:06 -!- kiltzman [~k1ltzman@95.215.47.208] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:08 -!- booyah_ is now known as booyah 05:11 -!- kiltzman [~k1ltzman@185.117.75.189] has joined #lightning-dev 05:18 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 05:23 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:26 -!- ebx [~ebx@unaffiliated/ebex] has joined #lightning-dev 05:31 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@37.58.58.232] has joined #lightning-dev 05:39 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@37.58.58.232] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 05:43 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lightning-dev 05:47 -!- shesek` [~shesek@bzq-84-110-232-235.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:07 -!- wxss [~user@46-227-67-54.static.obenetwork.net] has joined #lightning-dev 06:10 -!- bsm1175321 [~mcelrath@c-24-61-245-53.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:13 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:13 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has joined #lightning-dev 06:44 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 06:48 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 06:58 -!- bitonic-cjp [~bitonic-c@92-111-70-106.static.v4.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:59 -!- bitonic-cjp [~bitonic-c@92-111-70-106.static.v4.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 07:00 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:01 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has joined #lightning-dev 07:07 -!- haif [51c46baa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.196.107.170] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 07:08 -!- tiagotrs [~user@p5DC47011.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lightning-dev 07:08 -!- tiagotrs [~user@p5DC47011.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 07:08 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has joined #lightning-dev 07:19 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 07:24 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:25 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 07:27 -!- harsondaily [67d0dc8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.103.208.220.139] has joined #lightning-dev 07:32 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@xdsl-188-155-63-9.adslplus.ch] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:33 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-181-185-197.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 07:38 -!- BCBot_ [~BCBot@46.101.246.115] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:38 -!- BCBot [~BCBot@46.101.246.115] has joined #lightning-dev 07:38 -!- sstone [~sstone@3.46-14-84.ripe.coltfrance.com] has joined #lightning-dev 07:41 < sstone> cdecker: hi christian! how does lightning-c handle "duplicate" HTLCs (same payment hash/amount/expiries) ? do you relay such duplicates ? 07:43 -!- douglas_ [douglas@nat/redhat/x-ljtkjftrjnzoqguq] has joined #lightning-dev 07:44 < cdecker> Not sure tbh 07:44 < cdecker> I think we just relay them 07:44 < cdecker> (assuming preimage wasn't known yet) 07:49 -!- douglas__ [douglas@nat/redhat/x-kjbdymbdgfzotddq] has joined #lightning-dev 07:52 < sstone> we have an invalid sig with 02f6725f9c1c40... with a commit tx that includes 2 similar HTLCs (same payment hash/amount/expiry but different htlc ids) and I'm trying to figure out what happened 07:52 -!- douglas_ [douglas@nat/redhat/x-ljtkjftrjnzoqguq] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:06 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@37.58.58.232] has joined #lightning-dev 08:06 < sstone> I'll open an issue on our github and ping you. it's a case where a commit tx contains 2 similar htlcs including one that is being failed 08:21 -!- CubicEar_ [~cubiceart@xdsl-188-155-63-9.adslplus.ch] has joined #lightning-dev 08:24 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-181-185-197.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:37 -!- douglas__ [douglas@nat/redhat/x-kjbdymbdgfzotddq] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 08:43 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-mvalvjfjmxfjjigs] has joined #lightning-dev 08:50 -!- douglas_ [douglas@nat/redhat/x-olkjkdchiwwyyqns] has joined #lightning-dev 08:51 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has joined #lightning-dev 08:53 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@37.58.58.232] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 08:53 -!- jtimon [~quassel@142.29.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lightning-dev 08:53 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-mvalvjfjmxfjjigs] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:58 -!- moneyball [~moneyball@65.200.72.90] has joined #lightning-dev 09:00 -!- loon3 [uid291852@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-phuhiclrevbpncgn] has joined #lightning-dev 09:00 -!- harsondaily [67d0dc8b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.103.208.220.139] has quit [Quit: I couldn't begin to describe my gratitude] 09:02 -!- bitonic-cjp [~bitonic-c@92-111-70-106.static.v4.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:03 < loon3> Anyone in here have an idea why id be getting stuck at WAIT_FOR_FUNDING_LOCKED after 12 confirmations? 09:04 < loon3> I created a channel with sleepyark 02f672.. 09:05 < loon3> Timon suggested I come here to ask 09:08 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@174.127.143.202] has joined #lightning-dev 09:14 < cdecker> loon3, that could be due to funding_locked not being sent, are the two nodes connected? 09:15 < loon3> I'm using eclair wallet so not sure how to check that 09:16 < loon3> It was able to connect to at least start the process 09:16 < cdecker> Can you share your node_id and I can look it up on sleepyarks side 09:16 < loon3> Sure 09:16 -!- sstone [~sstone@3.46-14-84.ripe.coltfrance.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:17 < loon3> 038dcbc6f8bde1b1db14f68373b6bce42fd36c7925df2bb2e8572f9400b8131ce0 09:19 -!- JackH [~laptop@host-80-47-80-55.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:23 < cdecker> "CHANNELD_AWAITING_LOCKIN:They've confirmed funding, we haven't yet." 09:23 < cdecker> Strange 09:23 < cdecker> Doh, it's synching with the blockchain 09:25 < loon3> Ok cool, that makes sense 09:25 < loon3> I initially created a channel with acinq and got a send failure when trying to buy some blockstream stickers so I closed that channel and opened one with sleepyark 09:26 < loon3> I'm guessing that initial send failure was also due to the node being behind 09:27 < loon3> Also mikeinspace wanted me to share this with you lol https://twitter.com/mikeinspace/status/981929203632230401?s=21 09:29 < cdecker> lol :-) 09:30 < cdecker> Yeah, we're working on the catchup being reduced/removed altogether so that will be fixed soon (TM) 09:32 < loon3> No worries, I'm just eager to use it, so once it's caught up it should change to NORMAL state? 09:40 -!- lman [50678861@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.80.103.136.97] has joined #lightning-dev 09:40 < cdecker> Should be, yes 09:40 -!- douglas_ [douglas@nat/redhat/x-olkjkdchiwwyyqns] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:41 < loon3> Cool cool, thanks for the help! 09:42 < cdecker> Might take a while though, catchup is incredibly slow... 09:43 -!- lukapercic [b91c098b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.185.28.9.139] has joined #lightning-dev 09:43 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:45 -!- JackH [~laptop@host-80-47-80-55.as13285.net] has joined #lightning-dev 09:46 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 09:47 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-tlivtuuahidbrzgc] has joined #lightning-dev 09:48 -!- lman [50678861@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.80.103.136.97] has quit [] 09:49 -!- lman [50678861@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.80.103.136.97] has joined #lightning-dev 10:01 -!- lman [50678861@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.80.103.136.97] has quit [Changing host] 10:01 -!- lman [50678861@unaffiliated/lman] has joined #lightning-dev 10:01 -!- lman [50678861@unaffiliated/lman] has quit [Changing host] 10:01 -!- lman [50678861@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.80.103.136.97] has joined #lightning-dev 10:09 -!- riclas [~riclas@148.63.37.111] has joined #lightning-dev 10:10 -!- lman [50678861@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.80.103.136.97] has quit [Quit: lman] 10:14 -!- Murch [~murch@96.74.120.81] has joined #lightning-dev 10:28 -!- Murch [~murch@96.74.120.81] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 10:29 -!- Murch [~murch@96.74.120.81] has joined #lightning-dev 10:32 -!- lukapercic [b91c098b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.185.28.9.139] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 10:41 -!- Murch [~murch@96.74.120.81] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 10:53 -!- zxxma- [~zoOma-x@2a01:e34:ec05:8830:b4d9:bd46:3ae0:cafe] has joined #lightning-dev 10:59 -!- lman [50678861@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.80.103.136.97] has joined #lightning-dev 11:09 -!- JackH [~laptop@host-80-47-80-55.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:10 -!- moneyball [~moneyball@65.200.72.90] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 13:01 -!- AndBobsYourUncle [AndBobsYou@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/andbobsyouruncle] has joined #lightning-dev 13:05 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@174.127.143.202] has quit [Quit: probably someone interrupted me] 13:09 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:14 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-tlivtuuahidbrzgc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:18 < roasbeef> pm7: y'all are using a default csv value of 1 day on the new android app? 13:19 < roasbeef> ah well stil recv only i guess 13:20 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has joined #lightning-dev 13:37 -!- JackH [~laptop@host-80-47-80-55.as13285.net] has joined #lightning-dev 13:42 -!- zxxxxxma [~zoOma-x@2a01:e34:ec05:8830:b4d9:bd46:3ae0:cafe] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:50 -!- lman [5530383d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.85.48.56.61] has joined #lightning-dev 13:56 -!- moneyball [~moneyball@65.200.72.90] has joined #lightning-dev 14:02 -!- Murch [~murch@96.74.120.81] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 14:02 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:02 -!- Murch [~murch@96.74.120.81] has joined #lightning-dev 14:03 -!- AndBobsYourUncle [AndBobsYou@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/andbobsyouruncle] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 14:05 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05 -!- nitramiz [~nitramiz@76.76.240.247] has joined #lightning-dev 14:05 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 14:06 -!- MaxSan [~user@91.207.102.163] has joined #lightning-dev 14:10 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:18 -!- lukapercic [b91c098b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.185.28.9.139] has joined #lightning-dev 14:26 -!- nitramiz [~nitramiz@76.76.240.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:30 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [chris@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/chrisstewart5/x-62865615] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:44 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-phqokvqrxssfdnhf] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 15:02 -!- wxss [~user@46-227-67-54.static.obenetwork.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:05 -!- Murch [~murch@96.74.120.81] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 15:07 -!- lman [5530383d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.85.48.56.61] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:09 -!- lman [5530383d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.85.48.56.61] has joined #lightning-dev 15:16 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 15:16 -!- MaxSan [~user@91.207.102.163] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:17 -!- AndBobsYourUncle [AndBobsYou@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/andbobsyouruncle] has joined #lightning-dev 15:21 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:31 -!- Murch [~murch@96.74.120.81] has joined #lightning-dev 15:35 -!- moneyball [~moneyball@65.200.72.90] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 15:38 -!- sh_smith_ [~sh_smith@cpe-76-174-26-91.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:40 -!- sh_smith [~sh_smith@cpe-76-174-26-91.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 15:41 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@174.127.143.202] has joined #lightning-dev 15:41 -!- moneyball [~moneyball@65.200.72.90] has joined #lightning-dev 16:01 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-arkqgenuyjkmxxzt] has joined #lightning-dev 16:16 -!- geezas [uid253218@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-curjgbfczrppbmli] has joined #lightning-dev 16:20 < geezas> Hello, friends. I've got a question. Can a payer include a custom message when sending a LN payment? I know invoices can contain custom messages, but I'm guessing invoices can only be made by payees, or can payers also draft an invoice? 16:22 < mlz> an invoice for what? 16:23 < mlz> ask yourself: what is an invoice, what's the purpose for it? 16:24 < mlz> currently the payor just pay the invoice but they can't include a message because there's no need for it, i guess 16:25 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 16:26 -!- rods1 [~r251d@2600:1700:e350:37f0:bd76:a85b:4402:2605] has joined #lightning-dev 16:26 < geezas> Here's an example scenario I have in mind. There is a service that let's say accepts payments and the proceeds need to be assigned to some category. The category is chosen by the payer. 16:26 -!- r251d [~r251d@2600:1700:e350:37f0:79cb:bfe9:4e33:8a51] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:27 < geezas> Basically, what would be a good way for payer to anonymously send a payment for category A without having to communicate outside of LN that they want to pay for category A 16:30 < mlz> not sure what you mean 16:30 < geezas> Or another example: a service posts a short message on their site for a payment. Could a payee send the payment and include the short message together with the message? 16:31 < geezas> Correction: meant to say pauer not payee in prev comment 16:31 < geezas> payer* 16:32 < mlz> for LND no, not sure about others 16:32 -!- lman [5530383d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.85.48.56.61] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:34 -!- MaxSan [~user@91.207.102.163] has joined #lightning-dev 16:36 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:37 < geezas> So the expected way to use LN is for payer to provide info for what they want to pay for outside of LN, so that payee can generate the payment request/invoice based on that info and provide it back to the payer, and then the payer sends the payment? 16:41 < mlz> are you asking about paying for something from a store? 16:42 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@174.127.143.202] has quit [Quit: probably someone interrupted me] 16:42 < mlz> if you pay money to buy something and you expect it to be delivered to you then yes, you need to give them info and address where the item can be delivered 16:44 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@174.127.143.202] has joined #lightning-dev 16:49 -!- tryphe [~tryphe@unaffiliated/tryphe] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:50 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lightning-dev 16:53 -!- tryphe [~tryphe@unaffiliated/tryphe] has joined #lightning-dev 17:01 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has joined #lightning-dev 17:04 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@174.127.143.202] has quit [Quit: probably someone interrupted me] 17:07 < geezas> Its about paying for something that doesn't need to be delivered. The thing being paid for can be described in several bytes. 17:10 < geezas> Ideally payments should be as anonymous as possible. That's why having a way to provide the several bytes via the LN payment itself would be great. There would be no need for a separate (less anonymous) communication 17:12 < mlz> i still don't quite understand what you're trying to get at, you were asking for how the payer to communicate back on an invoice, doesn't look like you want to be anonymous 17:13 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@174.127.143.202] has joined #lightning-dev 17:23 -!- lukapercic [b91c098b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.185.28.9.139] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client] 17:25 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:30 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:31 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 17:35 -!- AndBobsYourUncle [AndBobsYou@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/andbobsyouruncle] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 17:37 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:40 -!- nitramiz [~nitramiz@76.76.240.247] has joined #lightning-dev 17:40 -!- moneyball [~moneyball@65.200.72.90] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 18:06 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@174.127.143.202] has quit [Quit: probably someone interrupted me] 18:24 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has joined #lightning-dev 18:29 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@174.127.143.202] has joined #lightning-dev 18:30 < roasbeef> geezas: yes 18:31 -!- shesek` [~shesek@89-139-93-16.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lightning-dev 18:37 < geezas> Thanks, roasbeef 18:42 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 18:45 -!- shesek` [~shesek@89-139-93-16.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:47 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:49 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:51 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-arkqgenuyjkmxxzt] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 19:00 -!- riclas [~riclas@148.63.37.111] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:15 -!- nitramiz [~nitramiz@76.76.240.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:15 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@174.127.143.202] has quit [Quit: probably someone interrupted me] 19:15 < mlz> roasbeef, what's "yes"? is this a tx where the payer can pay an invoice and send back a secret message? is it possible right now? 19:19 < lndbot> possible but not implemented, would need feature bit. could put w/e msg in extra onion blobs or pack unused fields in final onion blob 19:26 -!- Murch [~murch@96.74.120.81] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 19:28 < mlz> conner, is the concept similar to this: https://bitcoincore.org/en/2016/02/26/zero-knowledge-contingent-payments-announcement/ 19:28 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:30 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has joined #lightning-dev 19:32 -!- nitramiz [~nitramiz@76.76.240.247] has joined #lightning-dev 19:34 -!- moneyball [~moneyball@c-73-223-73-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 19:34 < lndbot> nah i think geezas is just talking about attaching a message from payer to payee, no zkcp necessary. it’s not an exhaustive list, but there’s a brief primer in the og amp email that outlines some approaches we can use to pack in more data. iirc rusty might also have a post describing similar schemes? 19:35 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has joined #lightning-dev 19:42 < lndbot> very cool! 19:56 < geezas> conner is correct - attaching a plain message is what I'm inquiring about. 19:57 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:00 < geezas> Is fixed size onion package a strict size limit in both directions or can the package be larger just not smaller? If the size is fixed in both directions, what would be the maximum size of a message theoretically possible if protocol were to allow it, keeping with current size limit of the whole onion message 20:00 < geezas> ? 20:12 -!- moneyball [~moneyball@c-73-223-73-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20:30 < lndbot> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2018-February/000993.html in the Protocol Overview section, there’s a short description of how you can add more data using extra onion blobs encrypted to the reciver 20:30 < lndbot> since we always use 20 hops, there are oft unused hops that can carry a payload 20:51 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:53 -!- ebx [~ebx@unaffiliated/ebex] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:55 -!- moneyball [~moneyball@c-73-223-73-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 20:59 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has joined #lightning-dev 21:11 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@174.127.143.202] has joined #lightning-dev 21:26 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@174.127.143.202] has quit [Quit: probably someone interrupted me] 21:30 -!- tencel [~tencel@172.94.112.130] has joined #lightning-dev 21:45 -!- nitramiz [~nitramiz@76.76.240.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:45 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@174.127.143.202] has joined #lightning-dev 22:00 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:00 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:01 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has joined #lightning-dev 22:01 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 22:06 -!- geezas [uid253218@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-curjgbfczrppbmli] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 22:29 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:30 -!- GTHaxor [~GTHaxor@c-73-171-122-48.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 22:31 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@174.127.143.202] has quit [Quit: probably someone interrupted me] 22:32 -!- moneyball [~moneyball@c-73-223-73-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 22:34 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@174.127.143.202] has joined #lightning-dev 22:38 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] icota opened pull request #404: Add MIME type recommendation to BOLT-11 (master...master) https://git.io/vxSQm 23:00 -!- jtimon [~quassel@142.29.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:13 -!- AndBobsYourUncle [~AndBobsYo@cpe-23-240-21-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 23:21 -!- leishman [8818bd9f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.136.24.189.159] has joined #lightning-dev 23:22 < leishman> is there any current lighting implementation that supports collaboratively opening channels? 23:22 < roasbeef> leishman: collab as in? 23:22 < leishman> my friend and I want to open a channel with funds on each end 23:23 < roasbeef> lnd has working code for that internally 23:23 < roasbeef> but it isn't exposed on the p2p level atm 23:24 < leishman> I see. So this feature isn't part of the lighting spec v1? 23:24 < roasbeef> nah 23:26 < leishman> ok cool good to know. I've been trying to figure out the best way to join the network and have capacity. problem is no channel i connect to has funds on their end unless i send a bunch of money somewhere 23:26 -!- AndBobsYourUncle [~AndBobsYo@cpe-23-240-21-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 23:27 < leishman> I have a node, but hardly any capacity enabling people to send money through me due to my unbalanced channel. what strategies to people take to deal with this? 23:29 < roasbeef> those that are running some automated channel management stuff will typically start to establish incoming channels to each other, then even manually rebalance 23:30 < roasbeef> have seen a good lil bump in activity on my node since the new eclair app was released 23:30 < roasbeef> much activity atm is clustered around a few active merchants on the network 23:31 < leishman> i see. is it normal behavior for two nodes to have multiple channels open with eachother? 23:31 < roasbeef> the new eclair app has an optiona to auto connect with one of their nodes, seems to be what many users are deferring to atm (that are using that app and hadn't messed with LN before on testnet) 23:31 < leishman> ah ok cool 23:31 < roasbeef> leishman: yeh no reason not to 23:31 < roasbeef> even with AMP like stuff, each channel can only carry so mamy pending htlcs before hitting the widepread policy limit 23:32 < roasbeef> so if you don't want to go into like indirect commitment pointer stuff, may need ot have more induvidual channels open to compensate for the htlc weight 23:33 < roasbeef> bitrefill is also a major exchange point, as many start to bootsrrap by like buying a stream credit off them, or then find a way to buy stickers or w/e else 23:33 < leishman> interesting 23:33 < roasbeef> things are still maaad early really, a lot of infrastructure to be built and also just general education and tooling for node operators 23:33 < leishman> so are the eclair nodes each opening a channel with the other node. So two nodes have two channels open, each channel being unbalanced on a different end 23:33 < leishman> ? 23:35 < roasbeef> what other node? 23:36 < roasbeef> er well the other one may have many channels open 23:37 < leishman> I'm trying to understand the behavior of the eclair nodes. If two eclair nodes decide to connect, they each open an unbalanced channel with the other node? 23:38 < roasbeef> oh well most of em are mobile phones, so they're not making direct channels to each other 23:39 < roasbeef> no more like one opens a channel to the other, and someone else opens a chan maybe to the initial node, or they can try to make a cycle 23:39 < roasbeef> or yeh they could open to directed chans 23:41 < leishman> I see. The trick is just getting someone to connect to you haha 23:44 < roasbeef> kek, or believe in the heart of the pilot agents 23:44 -!- dafunkiz_ [~dafunkizd@174.127.143.202] has quit [Quit: probably someone interrupted me] 23:47 < leishman> <3 23:48 < leishman> when my node asked me why nobody was opening a channel with him I said "just be yourself". We'll see if it works