--- Day changed Mon Apr 16 2018 00:05 -!- JackH [~laptop@91-189-61-70.riz.pl] has joined #lightning-dev 00:31 -!- JackH [~laptop@91-189-61-70.riz.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:36 -!- tiagotrs [~user@p5DC47187.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lightning-dev 00:36 -!- tiagotrs [~user@p5DC47187.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 00:36 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has joined #lightning-dev 00:51 -!- bitonic-cjp [~bitonic-c@92-111-70-106.static.v4.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 01:10 -!- anome [~anome@unaffiliated/anome] has joined #lightning-dev 01:10 -!- anome [~anome@unaffiliated/anome] has quit [Client Quit] 01:12 -!- anome [~anome@unaffiliated/anome] has joined #lightning-dev 01:49 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@185.94.189.190] has joined #lightning-dev 02:01 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@xdsl-188-155-63-9.adslplus.ch] has joined #lightning-dev 02:07 -!- anome [~anome@unaffiliated/anome] has quit [] 02:07 -!- MaxSan [~user@91.207.102.163] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:13 -!- anome [~anome@unaffiliated/anome] has joined #lightning-dev 02:14 -!- robzon [~robzon@178235204182.warszawa.vectranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:36 -!- volition [volition@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/volition] has joined #lightning-dev 02:49 -!- robzon [~robzon@178235204182.warszawa.vectranet.pl] has joined #lightning-dev 03:13 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@185.94.189.190] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 03:25 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:28 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 03:29 -!- ysangkok [janus@hapy.0x90.dk] has joined #lightning-dev 03:48 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vuryansibkustizi] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 03:54 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has joined #lightning-dev 03:59 < Guest17015> when using lightningd it requires bitcoind (bitcoin-cli) - what is the security impact of this? are any funds held in wallets of bitcoind? is it to monitor for fraud? 03:59 -!- Guest17015 is now known as schnibbler 04:06 -!- robzon [~robzon@178235204182.warszawa.vectranet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 04:07 -!- robzon [~robzon@178235204182.warszawa.vectranet.pl] has joined #lightning-dev 04:12 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:14 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #lightning-dev 04:15 < CubicEarths> schnibbler: lightningd must interact with the Bitcoin blockchain 04:16 < schnibbler> sure. is it only to monitor for channel funding and watch for fraud, or anything else besides this? 04:18 < CubicEarths> I think bitcoin node is part of what implements channel funding. channel funding requires an on-chain transaction, and the Bitcoin node is what would broadcast that tx across the bitcoin p2p network 04:20 < CubicEarths> And as you mention, there is also a need to monitor the chain for fraud. The Bitcoin node is going to be what collects and validates the chain 04:21 < CubicEarths> And then the lightning node can scan the chain for the transactions it is interested in 04:24 < CubicEarths> If you are using bitcoind as a wallet, and then you install lightning, you are potentially degrading the security of your bitcoin node, in the sense that ANY additional software you run alongside a bitcoin wallet can potentially degrade the wallet's security 04:27 < cdecker> schnibbler, yes, bitcoind is only used to monitor the blockchain, we do not store any funds on the bitcoind instance we connect to 04:27 < cdecker> We still trust bitcoind to tell us about public blocks and transactions, but it's safe to share a single bitcoind among as many lightning nodes as you want 04:28 < cdecker> (note that this is specific to c-lightning, other implementations may be more tightly integrated with bitcoind) 04:29 < AndyS2> what is the worst that an attacker could do if they control the bitcoind I connect to with lightningd? besides potentially exploit bugs in lightningd? 04:31 < AndyS2> from my understanding, it could hide the fact that a certain transaction has been published (steal attempt), and of course block any closing/opening of channels 04:31 < CubicEarths> AndyS2: One thing is they could broadcast a fraudulent tx, and then use their control of bitcoind to falsify the chain that your lightningd sees, so that your lightning node was unaware of the fraud until it was too late 04:33 < AndyS2> lieing about there being a successfully funded channel is also a possibility, I suppose. but that's only bad if I get a channel to receive funds. and might be impossible depending on how lightningd does stuff? 04:43 -!- anome [~anome@unaffiliated/anome] has quit [] 04:43 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@185.94.189.190] has joined #lightning-dev 04:46 -!- tryphe [~tryphe@unaffiliated/tryphe] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:47 -!- tryphe [~tryphe@unaffiliated/tryphe] has joined #lightning-dev 04:48 -!- riclas [riclas@148.63.37.111] has joined #lightning-dev 04:50 -!- anome [~anome@unaffiliated/anome] has joined #lightning-dev 04:50 < ysangkok> appendix C of Bolt#3 has some htlc scripts which i am trying to derive, but i don't see where the htlc-basepoint or the per-commitment-secret is given 04:51 < ysangkok> for example, in the commitment-tx-with-all-five-htlcs-untrimmed, i want to derive the htlc2 wscript 04:52 < ysangkok> to derive that, in the "offered htlc outputs" section, i see that i need the local/remote htlcpubkey. but to calculate those, i need the htlc-basepoint 04:58 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:02 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #lightning-dev 05:04 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:07 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fxtswsedljeaoqpt] has joined #lightning-dev 05:07 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@185.94.189.190] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 05:12 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev 05:15 -!- cmdrtee [~Mario@p200300C503C05B0025EF772E2F2BFFF4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lightning-dev 05:20 -!- ebx [~ebx@unaffiliated/ebex] has joined #lightning-dev 05:21 < CubicEarths> AndyS2: Yeah, if your node and another node agree to set up a channel, the channel doesn't actually exist until the tx is confirmed. If your bitcoin node was controlled by the attacker, they could make you think the funding tx was confirmed when if fact it never did. 05:21 -!- cmdrtee [~Mario@p200300C503C05B0025EF772E2F2BFFF4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:21 < CubicEarths> Then you accept payments over that "channel", which in fact does not exist. 05:21 -!- cmdrtee [~mrtee@p200300C503C05B0025EF772E2F2BFFF4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lightning-dev 05:22 < cdecker> Well the node would actually have to create valid blocks to trick you into believing a funding was confirmed or hide a spend for a really long time from you 05:22 < AndyS2> CubicEarths: ok, thanks for the info. I thought that this was something that could be averted by doing a thing similar to SPV clients, as we do know the txid of the funding transaction anyway. but I suppose this is not implemented yet 05:23 < cdecker> So I think the only real concern should be that you don't get told about a tx or block for some time 05:23 < AndyS2> cdecker: ah, so lightnind actually wants the blockheaders and merkel tree? 05:23 < cdecker> It does ask for full blocks currently 05:23 < cdecker> (and performs some sanity checks on the returned blocks) 05:24 < CubicEarths> does that include difficulty? 05:24 < AndyS2> does it have all blockheaders? 05:24 < cdecker> Not sure, will have to check re difficulty, we definitely should check for a lower bound 05:24 < cdecker> AndyS2, no it just remembers blocks it saw by their header and txs it is interested in 05:25 < AndyS2> so I suppose an attacker could try and mine a block ontop of an old block for a long time if they know that they are the bitcoind for a lightningd their victim uses 05:26 < AndyS2> but I guess they can do so anyway, sorry 05:26 < cdecker> Yeah, it's hard to do anything if the attacker controls your entire view of the blockchain 05:27 < cdecker> You can add safeguards, and query other nodes as well to improve slightly, but we just haven't gotten to a point where we'd want to trust a random bitcoind node yet 05:27 -!- jojeyh [~delphi@2602:306:b8b6:b970:85b5:455:4f7e:e82f] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:27 < cdecker> (also a random bitcoind giving you rpc access is a bit suspicious xD) 05:27 < AndyS2> yeah, it's unreasonable to aim for that this soon, anyway 05:27 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 05:28 < AndyS2> cdecker: well, scammers might do so 05:28 < AndyS2> there's so many tutorials out there to 'try lightning on mainnet' 05:28 < cdecker> We do have plans to eventually make it easier and remove the need for a bitcoind, but that's rather some way down the roadmap 05:29 < cdecker> Yeah, that's also why we were rather hesitant to add rpcconnect as an option since that allows you to connect to somewhere else 05:29 < AndyS2> but as it's only dangerous if you -receive- bitcoin, the scam would be pretty complicated or weird I suppose 05:29 < cdecker> But if you got random people to copy-paste stuff off the web, then you've won anyway :-) 05:30 < AndyS2> I dunno if it's well-known enough that the bitcoind could do scammy stuff 05:30 -!- cmdrtee [~mrtee@p200300C503C05B0025EF772E2F2BFFF4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:30 -!- cmdrtee [~mrtee@p200300C503C05B0025EF772E2F2BFFF4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lightning-dev 05:30 < AndyS2> I mean, most people read stuff, think about if it's plausible, then paste it line by line 05:31 < AndyS2> someone offering a running bitcoind instance run by volunteers doesn't sound too fishy *g* 05:32 < cdecker> It's attractive I know 05:33 -!- volition [volition@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/volition] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:42 -!- wxss [~user@37.48.65.48] has joined #lightning-dev 05:43 -!- blazon [7ab4f0dd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.180.240.221] has joined #lightning-dev 05:44 < blazon> will there be any security issue if multiple users are managed on a single lightning(lnd) node 05:45 -!- abhi_ [7ab4f0dd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.180.240.221] has joined #lightning-dev 05:48 < mlz> blazon, what do you mean? 05:49 < blazon> current implementation of LND supports one wallet per lnd node, 05:51 < blazon> basically are we hiding any user specific detail by this implementation or is it just implemented for simplicity 05:51 < mlz> that doesn't stop anyone from having multi nodes and multi channels to a same node 05:53 < blazon> is a multitenant support valid on a lightning node, or it breaches some security 05:54 < mlz> i'd rather not share my node with anyone else 05:54 -!- cubancorona [cubancoron@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/cubancorona] has joined #lightning-dev 05:59 < blazon> mlz: in b2b that is doable, but everyone hosting his own daemon seems implausible, what are the risks in sharing any pointer? 06:00 < mlz> blazon, please share your bitcon wallet.dat with me, upload it 06:00 < mlz> bitcoin* 06:00 < cdecker> You can always build a multi-tenant system on top of lightning, but that'd be a trusted setup then 06:01 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 06:01 < cdecker> You can either map channels to users or balances to users, both may not be trivial 06:01 < mlz> cdecker, yup, and you should rather trust paypal or a bank 06:02 < cdecker> You mean we're building this all for nothing?... man, such a bummer 06:03 < abhi_> guys need some feedback, is it possible to implement BOLT protocol for ethereum micropayment channels. If all the bitcoin specific txn are mapped to appropriate smart contract txns 06:08 < blazon> mlz: without multitenancy , how will adoption of lightning network become popular. Are we expecting general people starting their personal lightning daemons and keep them running for availability. Or could be port this daemon into a lightweight mobile app, is that a feasibility, still expecting that app to be running full time seems far fetched 06:09 < ysangkok> abhi_: doesn't make sense since lightning is based on bitcoin script. look up http://plasma.io or http://raiden.network 06:10 < mlz> it can be done like cdecker said, but currently LND doesn't have this, *a node is a wallet* afaik.. However, Acinq devs have a plan to help merchants to use LN, maybe cdecker and his team have that same plan too 06:12 < mlz> and to me, all these "concerns" about "adoption", first it was "how can bitcoin adoption happen..blahblah..", now "LN adoption blah blah.." just tiring 06:12 < cdecker> blazon, just download and start the eclair wallet, that's really easy 06:13 < cdecker> Why would you open an account with some service provider if your own node is just 2 clicks away? 06:13 < blazon> cdecker: I am not interested in using , I am interested in designing one 06:14 < cdecker> Then go for the "each user has its own node" scenario, and don't try to build a multi-tenant system 06:15 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:15 -!- dev_rock [7ab4f0dd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.180.240.221] has joined #lightning-dev 06:15 < blazon> cdecker : Lets say as a common user, I have a desktop app/wallet which is running locally, but its not like normal wallet, lightning network is relying on wallet being active for all sort of routing scenarios. 06:16 < cdecker> Not really, you can just run it when you're active and have some background tasks to check for errors 06:17 -!- cubancorona [cubancoron@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/cubancorona] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 06:17 < cdecker> Being online for routing is only necessary if you announce yourself as being a routing node 06:18 < blazon> ok got it, thnx cdecker 06:19 -!- abhi_ [7ab4f0dd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.180.240.221] has left #lightning-dev [] 06:19 < cdecker> No prob, looking forward to your projects ^^ 06:21 -!- lxer [~lx@ip5f5bd657.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has joined #lightning-dev 06:23 -!- abhi [7ab4f0dd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.122.180.240.221] has joined #lightning-dev 06:25 < abhi> ysangkok, I went through raiden and plasma both. But raiden has not provided any protocol/rfc for their implementation. And one thing that confuses me why their are not multiple lightning implementation for ethereum like ( eclair, c-lightning, lnd ) 06:26 < abhi> It may be a bit far fetched thought, but isn't it possible to interlink ethereum and bitcoin for cross chain payment, say if a lightning network is built for ethereum using BOLT rfc 06:33 < ysangkok> the BOLTs are full of bitcoin script, how are you going to enforce that on ethereum? 06:38 < abhi> ysangkok : except bolt-3 all see commonly applicable, and I think bitcoin's signed transaction scheme could be easily mapped into similar signed transaction scheme over ethereum 06:39 < abhi> even if not a hybrid scenario, would it make sense to attempt BOLT(- bitcoin scripts) based lightning network for ethereum 06:39 < abhi> for A -> B micropayments , both being ethereum addresses 06:50 -!- anstaendig [~anstaendi@196.196.200.3] has joined #lightning-dev 06:52 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 07:00 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-lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] cdecker pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vpf42 07:41 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- lightning-rfc/master 71630b4 Olaoluwa Osuntokun: BOLT 4: update sphinx packet test vector (#372)... 07:46 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] cdecker opened pull request #410: New take on PR 382 (master...pr-382) https://git.io/vpfBp 07:47 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has joined #lightning-dev 07:55 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] cdecker opened pull request #411: Bolt 0 (master...bolt-0) https://git.io/vpf0N 07:57 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@185.94.189.190] has joined #lightning-dev 08:10 -!- crt4 [~hk@213.205.192.43] has joined #lightning-dev 08:12 -!- Murch [~murch@96.74.120.81] has joined #lightning-dev 08:16 -!- crt4 [~hk@213.205.192.43] has quit [Quit: crt4] 08:27 -!- abbi [4b1b66f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.27.102.248] has joined #lightning-dev 08:28 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@185.94.189.190] has quit 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[~robzon@178235204182.warszawa.vectranet.pl] has joined #lightning-dev 11:37 -!- dx25 [~dx25@67-3-137-174.omah.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:40 -!- dx25 [~dx25@67-3-137-174.omah.qwest.net] has joined #lightning-dev 12:00 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] EvertonMelo opened pull request #412: add file for CCv4 (master...patch-1) https://git.io/vpfps 12:02 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] EvertonMelo opened pull request #413: README adequation (master...patch-2) https://git.io/vpfpl 12:10 -!- crt4 [~hk@host217-35-240-133.range217-35.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: crt4] 12:42 -!- anome [~anome@unaffiliated/anome] has joined #lightning-dev 12:46 -!- anome [~anome@unaffiliated/anome] has quit [Client Quit] 13:00 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 13:02 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:25 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] Roasbeef pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vpJka 13:25 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- lightning-rfc/master f5f123c ueno: BOLT 0: fix ordering of `chain_hash` 13:27 -!- anome [~anome@unaffiliated/anome] has joined #lightning-dev 13:40 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 13:51 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:59 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:11 -!- abbi [4b1b66f8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.27.102.248] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 14:14 -!- grubles [~grubles@unaffiliated/grubles] has joined #lightning-dev 14:16 -!- crt4 [~hk@host217-35-240-133.range217-35.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lightning-dev 14:26 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] cdecker pushed 7 new commits to master: https://git.io/vpJOg 14:26 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- lightning-rfc/master c256c46 Rusty Russell: BOLT 2: avoid obvious all-dust cases... 14:26 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- lightning-rfc/master a0214d3 Rusty Russell: Fix missing `set` typo. 14:26 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- lightning-rfc/master fbaa6f5 Rusty Russell: Complete requirements.... 14:27 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] cdecker pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vpJOa 14:27 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- lightning-rfc/master a8d1e00 Thomas M Steenholdt: Clarify query semantics in BOLT #10... 14:28 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] cdecker pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vpJOi 14:28 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- lightning-rfc/master d52e54e ueno: the amount paid is less than the amount expected 14:28 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] cdecker closed pull request #410: New take on PR 382 (master...pr-382) https://git.io/vpfBp 14:28 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] cdecker closed pull request #382: BOLT 11: Change "if" to "so that" to make sense (master...master) https://git.io/vATiv 14:58 -!- wxss [~user@37.48.65.48] has 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