--- Day changed Mon Apr 23 2018
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03:09 < ZmnSCPxj> Good morning rompert, yes, it is correct, it is always morning here
03:09 < ZmnSCPxj> And since I am human, always I am eating breakfast
03:10 < ZmnSCPxj> Not need to wait for me online to ask question, I monitor this periodically with alternate identity sometimes, it starts with a letter or some other character I cannot remember offhand
03:11 < ZmnSCPxj> Rompert, in most decent AMP plans, it is needed for payee to receive all sub-payments before they can claim any of them
03:11 < ZmnSCPxj> and once they claim a sub-payment, they have incentive, to claim all payments
03:11 < ZmnSCPxj> hence atomic
03:12 < ZmnSCPxj> so if a sub-payment gets stuck due to total node failure (as opposed to temporary node failure or channel-level failure), it is OK, either the payee can get all or none
03:13 < ZmnSCPxj> (even most total node failures are detectable, only undetectable, is if the node forwarded, then died, then a downstream node or payee sent success/fail to dead node)
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03:18 < ZmnSCPxj> Good morning rompert again, I was thinking a little more your scenario
03:19 < ZmnSCPxj> Of note, we cannot get confirmation that payee received sub-payment, until all sub-payments reach payee (and entire payment is made)
03:19 < ZmnSCPxj> But AMP will actually help resilience in this case (if we can define a good AMP design that has proof-of-payment)
03:21 < ZmnSCPxj> If we split into two paths, consider the case, where on one path, a hop node dies after forwarding but before success/fail
03:21 < ZmnSCPxj> But on other path, no hop nodes die and we can get success
03:21 < ZmnSCPxj> in that case, we can safely get the proof-of-payment (if using my HD+SS-based AMP)
03:21 < ZmnSCPxj> and if second path fails, we can retry it repeatedly until the invoice times out
03:22 < ZmnSCPxj> and once the invoice times out and the second path still fails, we know that the first path (which has error) cannot be redeemed by payee
03:22 < ZmnSCPxj> since the first path needs some knowledge we provide in the second path
03:22 < ZmnSCPxj> in order to claim
03:22 < ZmnSCPxj> so AMP is definitely an improvement
03:23 < ZmnSCPxj> issue is that current HTLC is not amenable to multipath+proof-of-payment+path-decorrelation
03:24 < ZmnSCPxj> Need SS, which needs Bellare-Neven + updated BOLT + implementations upgrading to SS
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07:24 < felix__> Hello
07:25 < mlz> hi     
07:25 < felix__> Is Bellman-Ford-Gibson the current lightning network routing algo?
07:26 < felix__> like described here: https://medium.com/@rusty_lightning/routing-dijkstra-bellman-ford-and-bfg-7715840f004
07:26 < felix__> ?     
07:34 < felix__> I've done some routing and I'm interested
07:45 < mlz> felix__, no clue, wait for experts 
07:46 < felix__> k ty
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11:50 < roasbeef> iratemin: important to note that when you make a channel with the "default" node, then you really only have a single "gateway" to the networ 
11:51 < roasbeef> so you depend on them to properly manage their outbound channels, as they're more or less a single-point-of-failure in a sense 
11:51 < roasbeef> horn: aggregate capacity matters less pre-amp
12:07 < roasbeef> ZmnSCPxj: wouldn't hold by breath on any schnorr stuff even really getting rolled out this year, we'll see tho 
12:07 < roasbeef> IMO there are ton of other low hanging fruits for improvements that should be pursued 
12:07 < roasbeef> rather than waiting on the mega super duper schnorr aggregration taproot grafted package 
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19:12 < ln_byz> How can one get the current topology of the Lightning Network without running a bitcoin full node? I am basically interested in seeing how topology evolves over time. Specifically, interested in capacity and weight (commission fees) of the channels.
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19:18 < mlz> whatever that means
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19:28 < ln_byz> I am trying to get the list of nodes and channels in the lightning network. And I am also trying to get the channel information such as channel capacity and channel fees
19:29 < mlz> no, LN is about privacy, you can never see every node or their channels
19:31 < mryandao> how to do source-based routing without knowing topology?
19:32 < mryandao> if i understood correctly, the privacy only applies to payment details, not the existence of nodes/channels
19:33 < mlz> if my node is private and you're not connected to me, how do you know ?
19:33 < mryandao> mlz: sure, then no-one can use your node as an intermediary for payment routing
19:33 < mlz> that is fine
19:33 < mryandao> but LN does support payment routing, so there has to be public nodes
19:34 < mlz> sure you can see some nodes on the explorer but you don't get to know *every* node
19:35 < mryandao> that's fine, its sufficient to know the topology of public nodes for source-based routing
19:35 < mlz> what's "source-based" routing?
19:36 < mryandao> a payment route that is pre-determined at the source node?
19:36 < mlz> not sure what that means
19:36 < mlz> you can see nodes having channels with other nodes but you have no sure way they can route your payments
19:41 < mlz> it's because of the privacy issue we don't get to know who/what if they spend their money on and that can be used as liquidity to route other payments
19:46 < roasbeef> ln_byz: connect out to a node...parse the messages
19:47 < roasbeef> can use bits of lnd packages to parse, etc 
19:49 < mryandao> mlz: you can still do source-based routing without knowing the channel states, by optimisitcally requesting them to route payments on behalf; if it fails, you just try a different route.
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19:58 < mlz> mryandao, what's "source-based" routing? 
19:58 < mlz> never heard of it
19:58 < mlz> roasbeef, lnd has "source-based" routing?
20:03 < mryandao> mlz: i told you what source-based routing is
20:04 < mlz> doesn't make any sense
20:04 < mlz> mryandao, have you run a LN node? made any payment on LN?
20:04 < mryandao> mlz: briefly in the past on testnet
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20:09 < mlz> yea it can be frustrating, less frustrating if we just throw all privacy out the window :P 
20:11 < mlz> but right now eliminating all useless dust channels from spam nodes is the first steps
20:11 < mryandao> mlz: there's still privacy retained for payment details although node/channel information is public
20:11 < mlz> step*
20:11 < mryandao> its still much better than paying through the bitcoin blockchain, where there's zero-privacy.
20:11 < mlz> oh some people don't care about their privacy and want to be advertised 
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23:35 < lndbot> <conner> mlz, source routing is when the sender has a picture of the graph locally (at the source)
23:35 < lndbot> <conner> from that, they are able to create routes. node pubkeys act as the vertexes, and channels as the edges
23:37 < lndbot> <conner> the source can retry a different route in response to a failure using the graph data, until it finds a path that works
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23:51 < renlord> what happens if payment was successful at first attempt, but times out on client, then client does a 2nd attempt on a different route and succeeds again?
23:52 < renlord> would the invoice be paid twice?
23:52 < renlord> *times out on client-side before the client is aware that the payment was successful.
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23:59 < lndbot> <conner> the sender’s htlc is always the last to timeout, by a some number of blocks