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TD--Linux is now known as TD-Linux 12:15 -!- TD-Linux [~Thomas@2604:a880:1:20::173:1001] has quit [Changing host] 12:15 -!- TD-Linux [~Thomas@about/essy/indecisive/TD-Linux] has joined #lightning-dev 12:41 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:53 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@h-13-35.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:55 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 12:59 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 13:07 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@h-13-35.A163.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lightning-dev 13:54 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:18 < erltho_> If Alice and Bob creates a channel, as I understand it from BOLT3, with the funding message, only the one that initiates the channel will put funds it in. Let's say Alice puts 1 BTC in the channel. Alice pays Bob 3 times with a value of 0.1 (tx1, 2, 3), so 0.3 BTC. Bob then pays Alice 0.3 BTC in one payment (tx4). What is stopping Bob from publishing tx 3? He wil not loose any funds, because Alice was the one that initially 14:18 < erltho_> put everything in the channel? 14:19 < lndbot> The revocation key prevents obsolete transactions from being published 14:21 -!- bitconner [~conner@64-71-8-130.static.wiline.com] has joined #lightning-dev 14:21 -!- __jnsmk__ [~jnsmk@89-158-106-154.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lightning-dev 14:23 < erltho_> I thought the point of a revocation key was to incentive both parties to not publish a revoked commitment transaction (all funds will be taken as penalty), if both put funds in the funding transaction? 14:24 < erltho_> What I mean is that Bob has nothing to lose by trying to publish a revoked transcation in the scenario given. Even if "all the funds are taken as a penalty" 14:26 < lndbot> Oh I see, that’s where the reserve % comes in 14:27 < lndbot> You must leave some funds as a reserve in order to avoid this 14:27 < erltho_> But I though this reserve would be earned during the time of the channel for the party who didn't originally put his funds in it? 14:28 < lndbot> It simply means you can’t send back all the funds you have received 14:28 -!- bitconner [~conner@64-71-8-130.static.wiline.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:28 < erltho_> Aha, I understand 14:29 < erltho_> Thanks! 14:29 < lndbot> np 14:30 < erltho_> Is it the channel_reserve_satoshis message that does this? 14:32 < lndbot> I don’t know, probably, github is flaking out atm 14:33 -!- douglas__ [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:33 < lndbot> Essentially what happens is that 1% is taken as a reserve amount to act as incentive not to publish that “costless” attack 14:34 < erltho_> Okay 14:34 < lndbot> In any case he would also stand to lose a chain fee 14:35 < erltho_> Yes, but this fee varies, so there would be possible with low risk with the right timing 14:35 < lndbot> And there would be a proof that could be sent around 14:43 < erltho_> Is there like a black list of dishonest nodes? 14:44 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:44 -!- lukedashjr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lightning-dev 14:45 < lndbot> Not that I know of 14:46 < erltho_> I didn't try to run a test node yet. Hopefully I will be able to play around with LN this summer :D 14:47 -!- lukedashjr is now known as luke-jr 14:57 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:01 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:03 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:05 <+roasbeef> erltho_: he does lose if he has funds at taht state, his incentive is to try to broadcast the _best_ state for him, but things are set up such that he always has something to lose 15:08 < erltho_> Okay I understand! I was just surprised, because I always thought that both parties were funding the multisig transaction(funding transaction), but the way it is implemented now, with only the initiator funding makes more sense 15:09 <+roasbeef> can be done either way 15:09 <+roasbeef> doesn't make a diff in the end, balances can still shift 15:10 < erltho_> Yes, that's the beauty of bidirectional channels 15:11 < erltho_> However, I think I would feel more safe if I know that the other party had something to lose from the begining of 15:14 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 15:19 <+roasbeef> erltho_: they do, they can't send until they get above their reserve balance 15:19 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:21 < erltho_> Okay, is it described by the channel_reserve_satoshis message in BOLT2? 15:21 < erltho_> hehe sorry for all the questions 15:21 <+roasbeef> yeh that's how it's set atm 15:21 <+roasbeef> could even by dnamic in the future 15:23 < erltho_> It might be my english skills, but I was a bit confused by this sentence: "channel_reserve_satoshis is the minimum amount that the other node is to keep as a direct payment." 15:23 <+roasbeef> direct payment as in their balance 15:23 <+roasbeef> but yeh could be re-worded a bit 15:24 <+roasbeef> basically it's a floor that they need to maintain at all times 15:24 < erltho_> I see! 15:24 < erltho_> Thanks alot, both roasbeef and alexbosworth :) 15:34 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 15:35 < molz> erltho_, it has been proven on mainnet that they can't cheat, now it's on tshirts: https://twitter.com/leblitzdick/status/1003745605318037504 15:40 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:44 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 15:48 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:50 -!- 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