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[~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:57 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 08:58 -!- douglas__ [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:58 -!- bitonic-cjp [~bitonic-c@92-111-70-106.static.v4.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:01 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has joined #lightning-dev 09:06 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 09:06 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:14 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has joined #lightning-dev 09:16 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:17 -!- n1bor [~owensr@185.9.34.66] has joined #lightning-dev 09:18 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 09:20 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:22 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has joined #lightning-dev 09:27 < n1bor> I am having issues where payments get "stuck". I.e. the OfferedHTLC gets into the commit, but never gets forfilled. I know I can close the channel with current commitment and get funds back. But issue is probably "upstream" so do not want to upset neighbour. Is there any way round this? 09:27 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:28 < n1bor> Also just realise that the worst thing you can do is retry payment before formally failing 1st try! As then could have 2 outstanding htlcs with different nodes that could both be fullfilled. 09:28 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has joined #lightning-dev 09:29 < molz> n1bor, which impl? 09:29 < n1bor> eclair 09:29 < molz> hm not sure if any eclair dev is here 09:29 < molz> but they're active on their gitter 09:30 < n1bor> But is it a protocol issue? i.e. once you put a htlc into a commit there is no way to ask you neighbour to roll it back as is taking too long? 09:33 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:34 -!- dalitsairio [~dalitsair@2a02:aa10:e87f:6280:75f1:5363:b565:ec69] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 09:34 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has joined #lightning-dev 09:39 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:41 < n1bor> OK - reread specs. So once the invoice expired the other side should have sent a update_fail_htlc. But seems they did not - instead after 4.5hrs they closed the channel. 09:42 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:43 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 09:47 -!- jtimon [~quassel@226.110.132.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lightning-dev 09:48 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has joined #lightning-dev 09:51 -!- gustavonalle [~gustavona@redhat/jboss/gustavonalle] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:53 < molz> i think that's the issue eclair is having -- closing/disconnecting channels and nodes 09:53 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:56 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:57 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has joined #lightning-dev 09:58 -!- lndbot2 [~lndbot@138.197.213.35] has joined #lightning-dev 09:58 -!- lndbot [~lndbot@138.197.213.35] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00 < n1bor> Is not my sides issue as it added the htlc (although don't know what other node was - will see if I can find out!). According to the spec only the other node can send the update_fail_htlc to remove it. 10:00 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 10:02 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:03 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has joined #lightning-dev 10:07 < n1bor> ln.mautematico.com was node label. If you are out there good to get logs for channel 22977a4572eae69e725656351189a0da3c39f545fe67bdef468f71a0d6cdc46e 10:07 < n1bor> 2nd June 10:07 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:09 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:10 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:11 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has joined #lightning-dev 10:13 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 10:16 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:17 -!- ghost43_ is now known as ghost43 10:22 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has joined #lightning-dev 10:23 -!- riclas [~riclas@148.63.37.111] has joined #lightning-dev 10:25 -!- nekotribal [~nekotriba@host-89-230-96-42.dynamic.mm.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:25 -!- dalitsairio [~dalitsair@2a02:aa10:e87f:6280:d090:e25a:f211:6ee9] has joined #lightning-dev 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16:12 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 16:21 -!- errentazaria [~errentaza@66-214-147-188.static.lsan.ca.charter.com] has joined #lightning-dev 16:22 < errentazaria> Hello, does anyone want to open a channel with me for a small amount? I'd like to test my node not sure if it's okay to post this here. Thanks. I tried some faucet online but I'm not sure if I was doing something wrong it just wasn't working. 16:26 < errentazaria> I have 2 channels open I would also like to see if we can tranfer back and forth because sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I'm not sure if its the network that is glitchy or if it's my fault. 16:34 -!- Guest40332 [~delphi@99-59-126-62.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:36 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 16:40 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:41 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:54 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 16:58 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:06 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:06 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 17:08 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 17:10 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:11 < molz> errentazaria, you can try with lnd.fun 17:15 <+roasbeef> cdecker: rusty around? 17:15 <+roasbeef> re the whole min fee thing 17:16 < rusty> roasbeef: yep! What's up? 17:16 <+roasbeef> afaik current bitcoind mempool will even dynamically raise their min fee, so how are we even meant to agree on a static value? 17:16 <+roasbeef> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/0264836695a2c260fcc50f25a5e9962098a84647/src/txmempool.cpp#L983 17:16 <+roasbeef> (based on the size of the mempool) 17:16 <+roasbeef> around the time all the spammy and long chain stuff was going on 17:17 <+roasbeef> i realized we were only looking at the relay fee, which can be set on the command line and will be static 17:17 <+roasbeef> (we as in lnd) 17:19 < rusty> roasbeef: Sigh. I think you're right; at some point the minimum fee nodes accept may spike, and we'll end up with stuck txs again. 17:21 <+roasbeef> yeh, we're at a pretty chill spot atm afaik fees (1 sat/byte gets in like next block), but never know when next spike will loom 17:23 < rusty> roasbeef: we also kind of hit a deadend with the OP_TRUE output: the RBF-must-exceed-total-fees requirement makes it really nasty. They can force us to outspend MB of txs. I would like a mitigation where larger txs are deliberately propagated more slowly (eg. 30 seconds for a 100k tx), but I'm not sure I'll convince anyone. 17:23 <+roasbeef> must exceed total fees? 17:23 <+roasbeef> as in needs to be the highest in the mempool to accept the bump? 17:24 <+roasbeef> but thought the op_true stuff was for cpfp, not rbf 17:24 < rusty> Yeah, RBF rules say you must beat total fees of all txs you are replacing (plus a little). 17:24 <+roasbeef> even w/ that we need an _initial_ fee, but if this rate rises dynamically, then we're back at the same problem 17:24 < rusty> roasbeef: problem is there's an attack: someone spends the OP_TRUE with low fees, you have to RBF it. 17:24 <+roasbeef> ahhh 17:25 <+roasbeef> lol let's make it a 1 of 2? 17:25 < rusty> roasbeef: that just means your counterparty can do the same thing. 17:25 <+roasbeef> so p2wsh with 1-of-2 multi-sig 17:25 <+roasbeef> yehhh... 17:26 <+roasbeef> so would seem "bring your own input" for fees is the most fool proof approach 17:26 <+roasbeef> so no_input, etc 17:27 < rusty> roasbeef: yeah; that was my eltoo trick. The q is: is it worth some simple workaround in the meantime, knowing the caveats? 17:28 <+roasbeef> the other party can only do that once though right? low ball a fee? 17:29 <+roasbeef> as we'd react and then raise it, then from there it can only go up 17:30 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 17:31 -!- delphi [~delphi@107-139-107-151.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lightning-dev 17:31 -!- delphi is now known as jojeyh 17:31 < lndbot2> by “bring your own input”, would that mean a fee hook is a p2wkh controlled by one of the channel participants? 17:32 < lndbot2> with option to add two hooks, one for each party/ 17:33 < errentazaria> molz, is lnd.fun on mainnet or testnet? 17:33 < errentazaria> nvm I see it it's running on testnet. I actually have mine running on mainnet and wanted to test it on the main. (: 17:35 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:37 < molz> errentazaria, oh.. you mentioned "faucet" so i thought you were testing on testnet, sorry but i don't want to test stuff on mainnet right now 17:38 <+roasbeef> conner: no fee hook at all, there's no fee on the commit, uses sighash_single+anyone-can-pay 17:38 < errentazaria> molz, okay no problem 17:38 <+roasbeef> when you go to broadcsat, you add your own input 17:38 <+roasbeef> second level htlcs work fine as they need to use no_input 17:38 <+roasbeef> or w/e other nested contracts 17:39 <+roasbeef> for the nested multi-party chan stuff, could do the same thing, and would also need no_input 17:44 < rusty> roasbeef: yes, they can only lowball once. But they can create up to 10-deep dependent transactions, and we need to outspend all of them. IN effect, they can probably do 100MB at 1 satoshi/kb, forcing us to pay 100,000 in fees. Ofc, instead of 1 they can use "just enough it will not get confirmed in blocks", and we end up paying a feerate of ~500,000x what they did. 17:45 <+roasbeef> ah, so you're saying we need to outbid the entire ancestor fee package 17:45 <+roasbeef> but if they make a package w/ a high rate, aren't they just getting it in for us faster? 17:45 <+roasbeef> tho i guess they could make the txns super big as you point out 17:57 <+roasbeef> idk all this stuff also makes pretty strong assumptions w.r.t what the widely used mempool policy is 17:59 -!- BashCo_ [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:59 < rusty> roasbeef: yes, they make it huge and insufficient. The reason for the RBF-must-outbid-all is to avoid a DoS where you waste bandwidth and cycles validating txs which just get replaced. I'm not entirely convinced that's necessary, esp. if larger txs propagate slower deliberately. 18:00 < rusty> roasbeef: agreed, but that's the real bitcoin, unfortunately. 18:00 <+roasbeef> i mean, we don't know what settings the pools run 18:03 <+roasbeef> but seems that we can restrict the attacker to just the other party by using a 1-of-2 18:03 < rusty> roasbeef: yes; for a miner (assuming blocks are full) simple RBF-based-on-highest-feerate is optimal. But everyone pretty much runs defaults. 18:04 < rusty> roasbeef: the other party is most likely to attack though, since they're trying to steal from our HTLCs by timing us out. 18:05 < rusty> Nobody else can really gain from this attack, AFAICT (hmm, maybe miners grabbing fees?) 18:06 <+roasbeef> yeh true 18:07 <+roasbeef> ok, guess we should all just go home then 18:19 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:23 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:23 -!- BashCo [~BashCo@unaffiliated/bashco] has joined #lightning-dev 18:27 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:33 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 18:37 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:38 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined 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23:41 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:56 < fronti> ag