--- Day changed Tue Jun 26 2018 00:48 < CubicEarths> mrd0ll4r: Someone needs to want to open a channel to you and fund it 00:51 < CubicEarths> If there is not inbound capacity in your direction, and someone wants to pay you, perhaps they will fund such a channel 00:51 -!- bitonic-cjp [~bitonic-c@92-111-70-106.static.v4.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 00:51 < mrd0ll4r> hmm, that seems suboptimal 00:52 < CubicEarths> And also, you don't need to 'give away money for free' just because you pushed funds to the far side of your channel. You could always buy something! 00:52 < mrd0ll4r> is there no way to, say, tell lnd "if you see node XYZ attempting to open a channel to you, allocate W amount of BTC from your end"? 00:55 < CubicEarths> I don't know the state of the mechanics regarding that. But that wasn't your original question, right? Because in that situation, you are describing a channel that is opened with you where the initiating remote node XYZ is funding their side. 01:00 < mrd0ll4r> oh, let me try to rephrase the whole situation from the start 01:00 < CubicEarths> I reread... I understand what you are asking 01:01 < CubicEarths> And I don't know the answer :) 01:01 < mrd0ll4r> alright :D thx for working with me though :) 01:02 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pyseauxzgncpmify] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 01:04 < CubicEarths> dual-funded channels? 01:04 < mrd0ll4r> trying to formulate the question better: Let's say I run node A and a friend of mine runs node B. We want to open one channel between our nodes, funded with 0.5 btc each, so we can immediately start using it in both directions, routing over it, etc. Can we do this using lnd, with just one on-chain transaction? 01:04 < mrd0ll4r> The only solutions I see so far are: 01:04 < mrd0ll4r> 1) transfer 0.5 BTC on-chain from A to B, then open a channel from B to A with push_amt=0.5btc 01:05 < mrd0ll4r> 2) open one channel from A to B with push_amt=0.25btc and from B to A with push_amt=0.25btc 01:05 < mrd0ll4r> but I don't see how to do it with just one channel and one on-chain transaction 01:07 < mrd0ll4r> ah yes, dual-funded channels sounds like what I'm looking for 01:10 < CubicEarths> mrd0ll4r: What is understood to be possible with LN is very far ahead of what is implemented right now 01:11 < mrd0ll4r> oh, I see 01:11 < CubicEarths> Fortunately there are teams of supergeniuses closing that gap as we speak :) 01:13 < mrd0ll4r> noice :) 01:13 < CubicEarths> mrd0ll4r: Are you running a node? 01:13 < mrd0ll4r> I have to say though, most of the stuff I've been trying so far has worked 01:14 < mrd0ll4r> yes, on the testnet, and probably not connectable from the outside world I'm afraid 01:16 < CubicEarths> cool 01:24 < CubicEarths> Mainnet is pretty fun. Just sayin 01:34 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@94.234.34.228] has joined #lightning-dev 01:35 < mrd0ll4r> well, if I had tried the same stuff on mainnet that I tried on testnet, I would've gotten rid of a good amount of satoshis because of the push_amt misunderstanding :D 01:35 < mrd0ll4r> I'm good with testnet for now 01:35 < mrd0ll4r> I do want one of those fancy T-shirts that can only be paid for using LN though... 01:42 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:44 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 01:47 -!- ebx [~ebx@unaffiliated/ebex] has joined #lightning-dev 01:49 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:03 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 02:05 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 02:09 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 02:10 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:13 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 02:14 < shesek> mrd0ll4r, pushing over funds and getting the other party to refund you on-chain appears to be the most sensible choice for now, though it does require annoying manual coordination and some trust >_< 02:14 < shesek> but yes, dually-funded channels should eventually resolve that, once implemented 02:16 < shesek> another possible solution is an offchain->onchain swap gateway, where you would basically do the same (push over lightning balance in exchange for on-chain payment), only without manual coordination and without trust (it could be done atomically, look up alex bosworth's submarine swaps) 02:17 < shesek> though submarine swaps have some complications in the offchain->onchain direction, he currently only has it implemented for the other direction 02:21 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@94.234.34.228] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:37 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev 02:51 -!- volition [volition@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/volition] has joined #lightning-dev 02:56 -!- arij [uid225068@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xuurhisyzpfvddqd] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 03:00 < mrd0ll4r> nice, thanks shesek 03:03 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 03:13 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 03:28 -!- Aaronvan_ is now known as AaronvanW 03:33 -!- JackH [~laptop@188.212.251.180] has joined #lightning-dev 03:34 -!- JackH [~laptop@188.212.251.180] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:10 -!- melvin_ [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #lightning-dev 04:14 -!- tiagotrs [~user@p5DDB66C6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lightning-dev 04:14 -!- tiagotrs [~user@p5DDB66C6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 04:14 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has joined #lightning-dev 04:16 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 04:32 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 04:44 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:51 -!- MaxSan [~user@91.207.102.163] has joined #lightning-dev 04:52 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:55 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #lightning-dev 04:57 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 05:00 -!- jtimon [~quassel@40.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lightning-dev 05:37 -!- volition [volition@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/volition] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 05:49 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:52 < molz> mrd0ll4r, i did the push_amt with someone with my two nodes to test in two directions, it was fun 05:54 < molz> you can do this with your friend if one of you have two nodes..Suppose you have two nodes, on nodeA your friend opens a channel and send you a push_amt, then on your nodeB you open a channel to him and send the same push_amt in return, then get other people to open channels to your nodes and watch the payment forwarding, you can try this on testnet first 05:59 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:01 -!- oudekaas [56542a46@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.84.42.70] has joined #lightning-dev 06:01 < oudekaas> hi 06:03 < oudekaas> I am trying to understand how the routing will work ie. if I am making a multi hop payment I believe route is figured out at my side (source) how is this figured out. 06:04 < oudekaas> And what will be the costs for routng nodes to keep enough financial buffer in case refills are happening less often versus depletiona. 06:07 < molz> what? 06:07 < molz> Lightning fees are very low, about 1 sat each hop 06:09 < oudekaas> I am trying to understand how the routes are figured out when someone sends from a to c via b 06:11 < oudekaas> with regards to this article: https://blog.lightning.engineering/posts/2018/05/30/routing.html 06:12 < AndyS2> oudekaas: maybe you can look at lnd or c-lightning implementation code. it's open source software 06:12 < ysangkok> oudekaas: lnd is using a modified dijkstras algorithm afaik 06:12 < oudekaas> Yes but I am not very good at those languages 06:13 < AndyS2> Maybe this is the file you need to look at, not sure, though: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/routing/pathfind.go 06:14 < AndyS2> Go is pretty easy to read if you know any popular programming language IMO 06:14 < oudekaas> just looking to get a better understanding on what it means and how you decide what buffer capital is needed and what the risks are in terms of using this system 06:14 < AndyS2> look at func newRoute 06:15 < oudekaas> ah cooll mthx for pointing me to the right direction 06:15 < oudekaas> Do you know anything about the buffer capital? 06:15 < AndyS2> I'm unsure if someone can tell you that without collecting some hard data about the actual network, by running a node. 06:16 < ysangkok> the buffer capital is imho not central to understanding the routing algorithm 06:16 < ysangkok> if you don't handle it, you will just get a routing failure and you can try some other path 06:17 < oudekaas> yes I guess I just wondered how that would work, perhaps my lack of understanding but what protects the buffer capital 06:17 < AndyS2> It's just too early to make judgements like that. More is better, I guess. If you have a buffer of one Bitcoin each, you can just look how much of it is used, and then reduce the channel accordingly ;) 06:17 < molz> i think he's looking to see how he can capitalize the LN routing :smirks: 06:17 < molz> nonetize all the things, man 06:18 < ysangkok> a node that WISHES to guarantee it can always route, can just restock own channels (by sending to self with a different channel), it is independent of the routing algorithm 06:18 < ysangkok> see also splice-in/out 06:18 < AndyS2> when the software supports splicing. or does it already do that? 06:18 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 06:18 < oudekaas> I am trying to figure out how the network is going to work and get a better understanding so I can have more faith in Lightning 06:19 < oudekaas> Ie. if it is clear to me there is a solid solution I can reroute my investments 😀 06:20 < oudekaas> I guess what I wondered is if LN becomes fully used by millions, will the routing buffer capital required not become huge? 06:21 < oudekaas> ie only for those that have a lot of money? 06:22 < oudekaas> or will the amount of routing nodes increase enough with the network to drop that buffer capital needed. 06:22 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:22 < oudekaas> I understand it is difficult to answer I guess without truly testing it. 06:23 < oudekaas> But I tought I ask tha was my last question 06:23 < oudekaas> thought 06:23 < oudekaas> 😄 06:25 < ysangkok> AndyS2: splicing not specified yet. roasbeef may have some implementation anyway, i don't know 06:26 < ysangkok> oudekaas: nodes that want to get routing fees will have to make sure their channels are balances (have buffer capital) 06:27 < ysangkok> oudekaas: larger channels can obviously support larger payments. but with AMP, a payment can be split up, it is kinda like MP-TCP 06:27 < oudekaas> yes got ya, but if a routing node handles thousands of channels 06:28 < oudekaas> will the buffer not become infinitely large? 06:28 < ysangkok> each channel has it's own balance 06:28 < ysangkok> nothing is infinite in bitcoin since there are only 21 million 06:29 < ysangkok> a lightning implementation for end users won't rely on them rebalancing their channels manually, the implementation can do that 06:29 < ysangkok> it is really easy to see if your channel is unbalanced or not 06:29 < oudekaas> you seem to know a lot, so are all the routng issues solved? 06:30 < oudekaas> There is so much fud out there 06:30 < ysangkok> there are always more issues, i don't know if routing will be a practical problem or not. if routing turns out to be very hard, implementations will probably sacrifice some privacy and outsource routing decisions to somebody who does it well 06:31 < ysangkok> but i don't think that will become necessary 06:31 < oudekaas> Ok all sounds really good, could you not open a testnet on aws with thousands of servers and test it 06:32 < oudekaas> or os this already doen? 06:32 < oudekaas> done 06:33 < ysangkok> i don't think anybody has done that. but you could simulate a network locally, why rent so many aws instances? 06:33 < oudekaas> I am contemplating either helping out on LN in terms of development (I know much too learn) or join zilliqa (they do sharding) 06:33 < oudekaas> well zilliqa has done over 3000 instances I believe 06:33 < oudekaas> this is why I ask 06:34 < oudekaas> The thing is if LN works I think I 06:34 -!- MaxSan [~user@91.207.102.163] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:34 < oudekaas> would probbaly like to learn about LN versus zilliqa 06:37 < oudekaas> Also I am created a website https://cryptoowls.com which I use to rank crypto on the basis of properties 06:37 < oudekaas> I was doubting whether to use LN as part of BTC yet. 06:37 < oudekaas> In terms of grading 06:38 < oudekaas> As I wasn’t to sure how far LN is in terms of scaling and fixing routing 06:39 < oudekaas> Thx for your time ysangkok much appreciated! If I want to lean more about LN which language do you advise me to learn, Go? 06:39 < oudekaas> or help out 06:40 < ysangkok> i would prefer that you learn TLA+ and prove an implementation of the lightning commitment protocol correct 06:43 < oudekaas> Will have a look! thx ysangkok 06:47 -!- oudekaas [56542a46@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.84.42.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:10 -!- xchuck00 [~xchuck00@unaffiliated/xchuck00] has joined #lightning-dev 07:16 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-ygzyiaqdjycslnud] has joined #lightning-dev 07:37 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #lightning-dev 08:23 -!- quer [~quer@unaffiliated/quer] has joined #lightning-dev 08:39 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:09 -!- tiagotrs [~user@p5DDB66C6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lightning-dev 09:09 -!- tiagotrs [~user@p5DDB66C6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 09:09 -!- tiagotrs 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[~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 13:29 -!- tiagotrs [~user@p5DDB62E8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lightning-dev 13:29 -!- tiagotrs [~user@p5DDB62E8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 13:29 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has joined #lightning-dev 13:38 -!- jojeyh [~delphi@2602:306:b8b6:b970:5053:9f1a:2f6a:a87a] has left #lightning-dev ["Leaving"] 13:42 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] rustyrussell closed pull request #436: BOLT 11: Break lines in route example (master...patch-2) https://git.io/vh3L1 13:44 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] rustyrussell closed pull request #439: BOLT 09 copy edit (master...bolt09-copy-edit) https://git.io/vhzzo 13:48 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:54 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 14:14 -!- Cogito_Ergo_Sum [~Myself@athedsl-212326.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lightning-dev 14:14 -!- Cogito_Ergo_Sum [~Myself@athedsl-212326.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Changing host] 14:14 -!- Cogito_Ergo_Sum [~Myself@unaffiliated/cogito-ergo-sum/x-7399460] has joined #lightning-dev 14:20 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:37 -!- bitconner [~conner@64-71-8-130.static.wiline.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:37 -!- azi` [~foo@odisej.fmf.uni-lj.si] has joined #lightning-dev 14:38 < azi`> I am not sure that's in any way relevant but I was running the lightening daemon today through valgrind. heres what it says https://pastebin.com/0S7VmCyS 14:55 -!- bitconner [~conner@64-71-8-130.static.wiline.com] has joined #lightning-dev 15:34 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-ygzyiaqdjycslnud] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:55 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:03 <+roasbeef> azi`: looks lie=ke mostly sqlite? would maybe make an issue in the c-lighting repo 16:29 -!- belcher_ 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