--- Day changed Fri Jun 29 2018 00:06 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has joined #lightning-dev 00:11 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:12 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 00:23 -!- face [~face@80.72.82.160.coresnet.bg] has joined #lightning-dev 00:25 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 00:30 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:45 -!- face [~face@80.72.82.160.coresnet.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:45 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@185.227.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lightning-dev 00:45 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 00:51 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:52 < HeySteve> I have some questions about attacks on LN, if anyone's up for that 01:03 -!- volition [volition@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/volition] has joined #lightning-dev 01:06 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 01:10 < mryandao> lets hear it 01:10 -!- vtnerd [~Lee@173-23-103-30.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:11 -!- vtnerd [~Lee@173-23-103-30.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lightning-dev 01:12 < HeySteve> so in January, Peter Todd mentioned the security depends on the punishment transactions. these are on-chain so could potentially be censored by miners, making it possible for them to collude to steal LN funds 01:13 < HeySteve> wondering where that discussion went 01:15 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:21 -!- daouzo235 [~daouzo23@77.119.130.138.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lightning-dev 01:32 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 01:38 < lndbot> if you can’t trust layer 1 then it’s fucked from the get-go 01:56 -!- daouzo2355 [~daouzo23@91.141.2.150.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has joined #lightning-dev 01:57 -!- j9m [~j9m@47.157.125.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:59 -!- daouzo235 [~daouzo23@77.119.130.138.wireless.dyn.drei.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:14 -!- tiagotrs [~user@p3EE2D839.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lightning-dev 02:14 -!- tiagotrs [~user@p3EE2D839.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Changing host] 02:14 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has joined #lightning-dev 02:18 < mryandao> my understanding is that in time when mast is deployed, it will be increasingly difficult for miners to identify htlc punishment transactions since the script for the punishment branch can also serve many other use-cases 02:19 < mryandao> right now, no doubt, the htlc punishment script itself stands out. 02:20 < mryandao> and censoring all scripts that resemble the punishment branch itself is futile. 02:21 -!- ebx [~ebx@unaffiliated/ebex] has joined #lightning-dev 02:38 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev 02:38 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 02:40 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 02:43 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:44 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:46 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:49 < HeySteve> thanks mryandao, I'll have to look into MAST but that sounds much better than Peter's solution of semi-trusted nodes not owned by miners 02:56 < HeySteve> ok, another attack, this time from a bcasher. mempool is over-burdened and miners / attackers force-close multiple channels in a previous state. if confirmation of punishment transactions is sufficiently delayed, can funds be stolen? 03:08 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 03:12 -!- tiagotrs 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04:22 < kanzure> roasbeef: hi, what is the source of the online signer requirement in lightning? what about both sides pre-signing a long sequence of transactions of agreed payments, and then slowly releasing the signatures to each other as they go along and services are rendered? this would allow for one-shot batch signing on e.g. an HSM instead of always-online key signing stuff. 04:30 -!- xchuck00_ [~xchuck00@unaffiliated/xchuck00] has joined #lightning-dev 04:32 -!- xchuck00 [~xchuck00@unaffiliated/xchuck00] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:45 -!- sp4ke [~spike@81.4.120.158] has joined #lightning-dev 04:55 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:57 -!- sp4ke [~spike@81.4.120.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:01 -!- sp4ke [~spike@i577A5B78.versanet.de] has joined #lightning-dev 05:05 -!- sp4ke [~spike@i577A5B78.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:15 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:24 -!- douglas__ [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 05:27 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 05:28 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 05:33 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Quit: = ""] 05:34 -!- jtimon [~quassel@40.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lightning-dev 05:34 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #lightning-dev 05:45 -!- kiltzman [~k1ltzman@94.140.116.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 05:51 -!- kiltzman [~k1ltzman@94.140.116.240] has joined #lightning-dev 05:53 -!- kiltzman [~k1ltzman@94.140.116.240] has quit [K-Lined] 05:56 < lndbot> HeySteve: if chain fees are high, then the attacker has to pay high fees to force close the channel, and the victim can presumably afford to pay even more fees to punish the attacker because all of the attacker's channel funds are available to use for fees. 05:56 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 06:08 -!- Tralfaz [~none@103.254.153.99] has joined #lightning-dev 06:59 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:09 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #lightning-dev 07:16 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:19 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 07:26 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:29 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 07:30 -!- volition [volition@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/volition] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:34 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:36 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:41 -!- ebx [~ebx@unaffiliated/ebex] has quit [Remote host closed 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[~ebx@unaffiliated/ebex] has joined #lightning-dev 08:25 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:38 < HeySteve> r251d makes sense, thanks! 08:44 -!- xchuck00_ [~xchuck00@unaffiliated/xchuck00] has quit [] 08:54 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has joined #lightning-dev 09:04 -!- stevenroose_ [~steven@vps.weuste.club] has joined #lightning-dev 09:06 -!- tigermousr [~tigermous@unaffiliated/tigermousr] has joined #lightning-dev 09:08 -!- jtimon [~quassel@40.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:12 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 09:14 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-181-185-197.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 09:14 -!- midnightmagic [~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic] has joined #lightning-dev 09:14 -!- dlb76 [~dlb76@unaffiliated/dlb76] has joined #lightning-dev 09:14 -!- tuxcanfly [~tuxcanfly@146.185.169.116] has joined 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[~buu@S010600fc8d3361b3.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lightning-dev 11:28 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:28 -!- one3w [~buu@S010600fc8d3361b3.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:39 < ivegotasthma> I'm trying to write an interface to LND, is there a way to get callbacks to events that happen? The LND recieves a payment or establishes a new channel, is there a way to reflect that dynamically or do I have to request it on demand? 11:40 -!- GTHaxor1 [~GTHaxor@c-73-171-122-48.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #lightning-dev [] 11:41 < lndbot> ivegotasthma, there's are streaming api in the rpc 11:42 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:47 < ivegotasthma> where does lndbot bridge to? 11:48 < molz> lnd slack 11:55 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 12:00 <+roasbeef> HeySteve: miners can always censor any transaction that want, that's why mining needs to be well distributed and decentralized. the punishment transaciton itself, can utilize all the funds of the cheating party towards fees, scortched earth style 12:00 <+roasbeef> ivegotasthma: have you looked at https://api.lightning.community/? 12:01 <+roasbeef> kanzure: if it's a uni-directional channel, then yeh you can do that, just sign more states for me and pop in my "inbox" somewhere 12:01 <+roasbeef> kanzure: warren was mischaracterizing LN in those tweets imo 12:02 < kanzure> got it. okay. 12:02 <+roasbeef> kanzure: even then, you can have signing purely in an hsm or hardware wallet, just depends on if you want to scacrifice speed for full manual verification, or have additional logic on the signing device to implement more advanced policy controls 12:03 <+roasbeef> another option is a sort of specialized mailbox node, that holds onto HTLC's w/ a higher time lock and takes an extra _up front fee_ for that, then when the receiver comes online they can pull 12:03 <+roasbeef> the entire path doesn't need to be syncronously online in order to settle, only a pair-wise link at a time 12:04 < kanzure> well in context i was assuming HSM is annoying/difficult/inefficient due to security/inefficiency spectrum 12:04 < harding> FWIW, at 21.co we actually looked at using CLTV payment channels with state emailed in order to mitigate some concerns about us being funds custodians for an application (we never implemented anything directly related to that idea though). 12:04 < kanzure> and that maybe a user wouldn't want to go to their HSM every day etc 12:04 <+roasbeef> mhmm, depends on the use case 12:04 <+roasbeef> but if ppl want offline recv uni-directional channels work for that 12:04 <+roasbeef> you can even embed a uni-directional channel within a regular channel 12:04 <+roasbeef> as a sub commitment 12:07 <+roasbeef> if one views a sidechain as special multi-proposer type of channel, then that's another route 12:08 <+roasbeef> well more limited forms of that, so no new rules, just a multi-party protocol to decide/reject on state updates 12:26 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:27 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has joined #lightning-dev 12:32 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:41 -!- tiagotrs 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connection] 14:34 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 14:40 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ijizdxtjftsdujit] has joined #lightning-dev 14:41 -!- nirved [~nirved@2a02:8071:b58a:3c00:a975:a28f:7b90:7aad] has joined #lightning-dev 14:52 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:00 -!- daouzo235 [~daouzo23@wl-loc177-82.liwest.at] has joined #lightning-dev 15:04 -!- daouzo23 [~daouzo23@wl-loc177-82.liwest.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:19 -!- Drolmer [~Drolmer@unaffiliated/drolmer] has joined #lightning-dev 15:37 -!- volition [volition@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/volition] has joined #lightning-dev 15:39 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:50 -!- GTHaxor1 [~GTHaxor@c-73-171-122-48.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 16:04 -!- GTHaxor1 is now known as GTHaxor 16:23 -!- Drolmer [~Drolmer@unaffiliated/drolmer] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:31 -!- Drolmer [~Drolmer@unaffiliated/drolmer] has joined #lightning-dev 16:37 -!- volition [volition@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/volition] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:37 -!- GTHaxor1 [~GTHaxor@c-73-171-122-48.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 16:37 -!- GTHaxor [~GTHaxor@c-73-171-122-48.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:13 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 17:30 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ijizdxtjftsdujit] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:38 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:12 < Eliel> roasbeef: uni-directional channels work for receiving funds offline? Is that because they only need signature from the sender? 18:14 < Eliel> Would be neat if there was a way to make a signature that could set conditions on the set of outputs for which it's valid. Like, if address A receives _at least_ X bitcoins, the signature covers the transaction. 18:14 -!- Murch [~murch@50-200-105-218-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 18:15 < Eliel> that way even bidirectional channels could be updated in a similar manner. 18:16 < molz> all channels are bidirectional 18:16 < molz> gotta kill the fud that channels are unidirectional 18:17 < Eliel> uni-directional channel is possible too. 18:17 < molz> you mean you open a channel with an alien? 18:19 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:20 < Eliel> I have on idea what you're even asking. 18:31 -!- HeySteve [~hexchaaat@unaffiliated/heysteve] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:36 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 18:39 <+roasbeef> molz: lmao 18:39 < molz> roasbeef, when do people realize ln channels are bidirectional? 18:40 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:41 < lndbot> Make sure you have a lot of FEC on that alien channel. They only get one shot at receiving it. 18:44 < molz> "Poon-Dryja payment channels have indefinite lifetime. They are also bidirectional, unlike Spilman and CLTV payment channels." 18:45 < molz> "Spillman payment channels are unidirectional (there is a payer and a payee, and it is not possible to transfer money back in the reverse direction)." <--- this is not how Lightning Network channels function 18:46 < molz> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Payment_channels 18:50 -!- volition [volition@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/volition] has joined #lightning-dev 18:56 -!- melvster [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:57 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 19:01 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 19:18 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 19:23 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:38 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 19:44 -!- nodweber 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