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[Changing host] 11:56 -!- Cogito_Ergo_Sum [~Myself@unaffiliated/cogito-ergo-sum/x-7399460] has joined #lightning-dev 11:58 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #lightning-dev 12:08 -!- tiagotrs [~user@x59cc9b31.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #lightning-dev 12:08 -!- tiagotrs [~user@x59cc9b31.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Changing host] 12:08 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has joined #lightning-dev 12:29 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:30 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 12:39 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:57 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 13:15 < lndbot> @roasbeef do you know who's @FeedTheWeb on GH? is it @alex.sd3? 13:16 -!- GThaxor [~GTHaxor@pool-70-106-226-69.clppva.fios.verizon.net] has left #lightning-dev [] 13:17 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-235-213.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lightning-dev 13:17 -!- shesek [~shesek@bzq-84-110-235-213.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Changing host] 13:17 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #lightning-dev 13:18 <+roasbeef> felixp: i actually met them in berlin, their name is alex, but dunno their nick on irc or lnd slack 13:18 < lndbot> ok thanks... 14:10 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 14:11 -!- j9m [~j9m@47.157.125.55] has joined #lightning-dev 14:11 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 14:20 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:23 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:29 -!- HeySteve [~hexchaaat@unaffiliated/heysteve] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:35 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev 14:43 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 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[volition@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/volition] has joined #lightning-dev 17:47 -!- meshcollider [uid246294@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vxrogkburwyhlotw] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 17:50 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:56 -!- melvin_ [~melvin@ip-86-49-18-198.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:59 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 18:00 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:00 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #lightning-dev 18:11 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:12 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has joined #lightning-dev 18:15 < rusty> roasbeef: dumb q. I'm revamping c-lightning's key derivation scheme (we currently hkdf from a per-peer seed for all the points, including the payment basepoint, which defeats the purpose of having it defined separately). Should I copy the lnd scheme? 18:15 < rusty> (Since I'm going to break compat anyway). 18:16 < rusty> roasbeef: and how much Go will I have to read to do it? :) 18:19 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:22 < rusty> It *might* mean users can migrate between lnd and c-lightning, but they'd have to get all the channel state somehow, which seems like a bigger job. 18:27 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:27 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:28 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has joined #lightning-dev 18:31 -!- lndtester11 [~Beast@59.6.64.209] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 18:35 -!- lndtester11 [~Beast@59.6.64.209] has joined #lightning-dev 18:44 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 18:48 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:50 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has joined #lightning-dev 18:51 <+roasbeef> rusty: i think it'd be beneficial, jonas schnelli has a draft-ish bip of the cipherseed scheme (the new seed phrase) format we use 18:51 <+roasbeef> also in a world of static back ups, if everyone uses the same foramt, then there can be tools to do recovery with the backups + seed 18:52 <+roasbeef> not too much go, it's mostly in commnts: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/keychain/derivation.go#L23 18:52 <+roasbeef> so a purpose for bip44, then the "accounts" are particular key families: htlc, multisig, etc 18:53 <+roasbeef> https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/keychain/derivation.go#L77 18:53 <+roasbeef> lol that comment is out of date, it should actually be 1017 for the purpose there like the top level comment 18:53 < rusty> roasbeef: yeah, agreed, esp. since I'm breaking stuff. The seed backup is nice too, though orthogonal really to derivation. 18:53 < rusty> roasbeef: just wanted to make sure you weren't about to move to version 1 or something! 18:54 <+roasbeef> for derivation no such move in sight 18:54 <+roasbeef> for the seed stuff, we might add a new version (there's a version on the cipherseed, the external one we care about here) to use a "lighter" kdf 18:54 <+roasbeef> so it can be run on mobile phones and maybe hardware wallets 18:55 <+roasbeef> the current params for scrypt use like 300mb or so, and i've seen reports ofppl trying to run on older iphones and it just kils things since it only lets the memory map size get so large 18:55 < rusty> roasbeef: Great! We keep talking about having an "emergency salvage" too into which you dump all the data into it and it'll try to get your funds back. Using the same scheme means we could potentially share that tool, too. 18:56 <+roasbeef> yep so idea is given static backup which has chan details, and also a KeyLocator, you can derive the commit key and your node key as well 18:57 <+roasbeef> it really is a pain that the no delay commit key is modified by the remote party's un-revealed revocation point 18:57 <+roasbeef> if it wasn't you could just find that on the chain and sweep it 18:57 <+roasbeef> but as is now, there's a window of opportunity that you need to catch 18:58 < rusty> roasbeef: Hmm, so you hardcoded the scrypt params rather than placing it in the key? 18:58 < rusty> roasbeef: yeah, eltoo mumble handwave? :) 18:58 <+roasbeef> in lnd we're gonna move to always re-send the last chan reest message to the remote party if they connect until we see them sweep on chain 18:58 <+roasbeef> no the external version on the seed tells you how to decipher it, and it also signals what the scrypt params are 18:59 < rusty> roasbeef: yeah, but only 1 version is defined AFAICT? 18:59 <+roasbeef> yeh 18:59 < rusty> Rather than . 18:59 <+roasbeef> you could take a v0, use an offline tool, and make a v1 18:59 < rusty> Though then some implementer will choose iterations == 1 or something I guess. 19:00 <+roasbeef> choose iterations, it's defined that v0 uses these scrypt params: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/aezeed/cipherseed.go#L112 19:00 <+roasbeef> choose iterations? 19:00 <+roasbeef> so it's like a global signal thing, the v1 would be something lighter but keep everything else in play 19:00 <+roasbeef> jonas is leaning on adding like a v2+ that uses chacha and a truncated mac instead of aezeed 19:01 <+roasbeef> err aez 19:01 < rusty> roasbeef: if v1 encoded the number of iterations explicitly, it would be possible. But I'm thinking that devs would just screw it up, so maybe having a "0 = normal, 1 = lite" is better. 19:02 < rusty> roasbeef: yeah, I'd never heard of AEZ 19:03 <+roasbeef> it's pretty dope :) 19:03 <+roasbeef> AEZ that is 19:03 <+roasbeef> arbitrary input size tweakable block cipher 19:04 <+roasbeef> it's also an aead, and you can control how much the ciphertext expands which is basically your mac strength (the number of bits) 19:04 <+roasbeef> oh yeh that's what i mean v0 = normal v1 = lite 19:04 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 19:04 < rusty> roasbeef: yep, I was just debating with myself, and decided you are right :) 19:06 < rusty> roasbeef: back to key derivation, we should really write up the keychain derivation with some test vectors. It's almost BOLT worthy, though a bit weird since it's only advisory... 19:06 <+roasbeef> mhmm, yeh a write up would be good, and then another one that eventually described the serialized format for teh static backup 19:07 <+roasbeef> yeh advisory, not really mandatory 19:08 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:10 * rusty looks at cdecker... he likes Go and writing up stuff! :) 19:10 -!- azi` [~foo@odisej.fmf.uni-lj.si] has joined #lightning-dev 19:19 -!- TeaPanda [~TeaPanda@unaffiliated/teapanda] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:25 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 19:29 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:45 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 19:50 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:06 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 20:10 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:23 -!- ebx [~ebx@unaffiliated/ebex] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:27 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 20:31 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:47 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 20:52 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:08 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 21:13 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:20 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 21:21 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 21:42 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has joined #lightning-dev 21:46 < rusty> roasbeef: Hmm, so KeyFamilyPaymentBase and the other keys are on a non-hardened subtree; IIRC that means if the secret key of any other key for that channel leaks, your payment secret key also leaks? 21:47 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:10 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has joined #lightning-dev 22:21 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:22 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has joined #lightning-dev 22:24 <+roasbeef> rusty: oh these are all hardened 22:24 <+roasbeef> https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/keychain/derivation.go#L32 22:24 <+roasbeef> that lil tick mark there 1017' 22:25 < rusty> Ah, keyfamily is top of the tree, gotchya. 22:25 < rusty> roasbeef: what's 'index' here though? 22:26 < rusty> Is that some 0-based counter for each channel you create? 22:29 <+roasbeef> yep 22:30 <+roasbeef> so the current impl just starts to walk down the hd chain for that key family 22:34 < rusty> roasbeef: cool, that maps to our "dbid", which is just a counter when we create the channel. 1-based. We current hkdf of that + peerid, but peerid is really overkill since dbid should be unique. 22:35 < rusty> roasbeef: OK, I'm sold :) 22:35 <+roasbeef> yeh we ended up dropping like a per pee tweak or ID as well, this is just simpler 22:35 <+roasbeef> nice :) 22:55 < rusty> roasbeef: by not using keyFamily' do you risk cross-channel leakage? 22:56 < rusty> (or when you say all hardened, do you mean it's actually m/1017'/coinType'/keyFamily'/0'/index 23:13 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:39 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #lightning-dev 23:44 -!- HeySteve [~hexchaaat@unaffiliated/heysteve] has joined #lightning-dev