--- Day changed Thu Jul 26 2018 00:06 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@2605:a601:b021:f00:20cd:bcc4:d94:61ee] has joined #lightning-dev 00:06 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 00:08 -!- MaxSan [~user@185.9.19.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:10 -!- MaxSan [~user@185.9.19.107] has joined #lightning-dev 00:11 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@2605:a601:b021:f00:20cd:bcc4:d94:61ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:11 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:20 -!- froyer [~froyer@124.19.31.4] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:23 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@16.77.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:27 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 00:32 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:35 -!- tiagotrs [~user@i577B9C24.versanet.de] has joined #lightning-dev 00:35 -!- tiagotrs [~user@i577B9C24.versanet.de] has quit [Changing host] 00:35 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has joined #lightning-dev 00:48 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 00:53 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:58 -!- bitonic-cjp [~bitonic-c@92-111-70-106.static.v4.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #lightning-dev 01:02 -!- casseli [~wzyryslip@199.167.138.20] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:03 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] nayuta-ueno opened pull request #455: fix typos (master...fix_typos) https://git.io/fNEIQ 01:06 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 01:08 -!- Nageki [~Nageki@pool-108-35-133-152.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:09 -!- Nageki [~Nageki@pool-108-35-133-152.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lightning-dev 01:12 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:26 -!- 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[Quit: laurentmt] 07:53 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 07:53 -!- Aaronva__ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 07:57 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 07:57 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:04 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 08:08 -!- shesek [~shesek@2.55.131.207] has joined #lightning-dev 08:08 -!- shesek [~shesek@2.55.131.207] has quit [Changing host] 08:08 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #lightning-dev 08:18 -!- no_input_found [no_input_f@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/noinputfound/x-24977668] has left #lightning-dev ["Leaving"] 08:31 -!- no_input_found [no_input_f@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/noinputfound/x-24977668] has joined #lightning-dev 08:33 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:37 -!- shesek [~shesek@2.55.131.207] has joined #lightning-dev 08:37 -!- shesek [~shesek@2.55.131.207] has quit [Changing host] 08:37 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #lightning-dev 08:41 < achow101> has there been thoughts about dual funding a channel? 08:48 < molz> sure, achow101 i think so but from what i heard it's not easy 08:49 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-yitvpyoiecnqowfb] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:50 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@2605:a601:b021:f00:20cd:bcc4:d94:61ee] has joined #lightning-dev 08:56 -!- bitonic-cjp [~bitonic-c@92-111-70-106.static.v4.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:56 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@2605:a601:b021:f00:20cd:bcc4:d94:61ee] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:02 -!- Aaronva__ is now known as AaronvanW 09:10 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@185.94.189.190] has joined #lightning-dev 09:11 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@136.52.18.22] has joined #lightning-dev 09:15 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~mdunn@38.126.31.226] has joined #lightning-dev 09:16 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@185.94.189.190] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 09:21 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@136.52.18.22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:22 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 09:22 -!- RubenSomsen [uid301948@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lsijdgntdxvbyttk] has joined #lightning-dev 09:23 -!- lxer [~lx@176.74.57.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:25 < cdecker> achow101: mostly it's the question of getting the other side to commit their funds to your channel 09:26 < cdecker> It requires ahead of time coordination, and encourages opening channels to more trusted counterparties, which I personally think is a step back from the totally trustless network formation we have currently 09:37 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@2605:a601:b021:f00:20cd:bcc4:d94:61ee] has joined #lightning-dev 09:40 -!- Urgo_ [~Urgo@cpe-107-15-142-254.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lightning-dev 09:41 -!- Kaizen_ 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[~froyer@126.121.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #lightning-dev 11:18 -!- froyer [~froyer@126.121.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:21 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:22 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has joined #lightning-dev 11:25 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 11:33 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 11:34 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 11:37 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 11:44 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:00 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev 12:07 -!- bitconne1 [~conner@136.24.175.89] has joined #lightning-dev 12:09 -!- bitconner [~conner@136.24.175.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:27 -!- schmidty_ [uid297174@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rzgqgmwltkhczvft] has joined #lightning-dev 12:30 -!- jtimon [~quassel@213.28.134.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lightning-dev 12:48 -!- tiagotrs [~user@i577A6746.versanet.de] has joined #lightning-dev 12:48 -!- tiagotrs [~user@i577A6746.versanet.de] has quit [Changing host] 12:48 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has joined #lightning-dev 12:49 < jimpo> cdecker if you have symmetric delays/reserve on both sides and/or prior history with a node, I think nodes could accept dual funder channels without human coordination 12:56 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@080-250-077-212-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has joined #lightning-dev 13:08 -!- Jbaczuk [~Jbaczuk@174-23-53-9.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lightning-dev 13:09 < Jbaczuk> hey just set up a node, wondering how to choose which node to open a channel with, there's quite a bit now 13:17 < molz> Jbaczuk, are you planning to buy something? 13:21 < Jbaczuk> molz: maybe eventually, first I would like to get my feet wet 13:21 < molz> yea, it depends what you want to do 13:22 < Jbaczuk> molz: ok i'll just choose one that looks well connected, i guess 13:22 < Jbaczuk> if my node crashes and data gets corrupted what do i need to back up in order to restore the channels/wallets i have? 13:23 < molz> which implementation are you using? 13:23 < Jbaczuk> c-lightning 13:25 < Jbaczuk> i guess my real question is when i create a new address using lightning-cli newaddr are the private keys for that address stored on the lightning node or the bitcoin node that it's connected to? 13:26 -!- farmerwampum [~farmerwam@88.202.178.98] has quit [Quit: farmerwampum] 13:26 < molz> it's stored in .lightning, not bitcoin wallet.dat 13:32 -!- bitconne1 [~conner@136.24.175.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:34 < Jbaczuk> molz: ok i'll back up that folder, then 13:37 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@2605:a601:b021:f00:20cd:bcc4:d94:61ee] has joined #lightning-dev 13:39 -!- Nageki [~Nageki@pool-108-35-133-152.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:40 -!- Nageki [~Nageki@pool-108-35-133-152.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lightning-dev 13:41 -!- Kaizen_ [~kaizen_@2605:a601:b021:f00:20cd:bcc4:d94:61ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:54 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:54 < molz> Jbaczuk, a backup can only help you to restore coins in your c-lightning wallet, but you still can lose your channel coin because if you run a backup which is in old state, it won't work with channels 13:54 -!- casseli [~wzyryslip@199.167.138.20] has joined #lightning-dev 13:56 < Jbaczuk> molz: so backup after you create a channel? is that what you're saying? 13:56 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] renepickhardt opened pull request #458: added a list gossip protocol messanges (master...master) https://git.io/fNuGw 14:02 < molz> Jbaczuk, but what if someone opens a channel to your node without you knowing it till later, from what i've seen, my nodes are in dynamic state constantly, i'd be afraid to use an old backup 14:03 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 14:04 < Jbaczuk> molz: i see what you mean, but if you have the private key that initiated the transaction for the channel, couldn't you still theoretically access it? 14:05 -!- Nageki [~Nageki@pool-108-35-133-152.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:05 -!- Nageki [~Nageki@pool-108-35-133-152.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lightning-dev 14:05 < molz> im not sure if you can currently 14:06 < molz> i know for LND we can't 14:07 < molz> and i do have a c-lightning node on mainnet, im not backing it up 14:07 < molz> but i don't put too much money in the channels 14:09 < Jbaczuk> molz: from what I understand, the tx that initiates the channel is a time-based refund tx and anything that happens between the two parties will get solidified when the tx times out, is that more or less true? 14:10 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 14:10 < molz> Jbaczuk, you mean the tx to open a channel? 14:12 < molz> Jbaczuk, if you open a channel, you put your money in there.. and suppose something happens you lose access to your node, or the disk gets fried, .. the coin in that channel is gone 14:13 < molz> i think if you're lucky and get a backup right before this accident happens, you might get back the channel by running the backup on another machine, i think 14:13 < molz> but how do we know when the state hasn't changed yet, that's the thing 14:14 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 14:15 < Jbaczuk> molz: the coin is your private key so you can still spend it 14:16 < Jbaczuk> coins don't dissappear, just access to spend them, i.e. private key 14:16 < molz> but i don't know how to get to the private keys in a channel on c-lightning, you might want to ask rusty in channel #c-lightning :) 14:16 < molz> if he's there 14:16 -!- bitconner [~conner@64-71-8-130.static.wiline.com] has joined #lightning-dev 14:17 < Jbaczuk> molz: oh, cool thx for the referral and for chatting :) 14:17 < molz> Jbaczuk, you're thinking of bitcoin the old fashioned way, lightning is a different beast 14:17 < Jbaczuk> molz: really well i probably dont understand it then 14:24 < molz> oh.. i don't understand a lot of stuff with Lightning either, i think only a few people can understand thoroughly how LN works 14:26 < Jbaczuk> this vid is where i learned about it, specifically here: https://youtu.be/8zVzw912wPo?t=6m1s 14:30 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~mdunn@38.126.31.226] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:35 < molz> ya but that video is pretty outdated 14:40 < Jbaczuk> is that not how it works anymore? 14:46 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 14:49 < molz> hm maybe not, i thought it was another video 14:51 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:06 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 15:07 -!- tryphe_ is now known as tryphe 15:10 -!- Jbaczuk [~Jbaczuk@174-23-53-9.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:11 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:27 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 15:32 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:34 -!- lxer [~lx@ip5f5bd669.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:36 -!- tiagotrs [~user@unaffiliated/tiagotrs] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:36 -!- ebx [~ebx@unaffiliated/ebex] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:46 <+roasbeef> jimpo: huh? it's a matter of setting limits and policies if i shuld even commit a chan with you or not 15:46 <+roasbeef> as in peer white listing possibly 15:47 <+roasbeef> Q is if you put up 5 BTC, how much should I put up if any 15:48 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 15:48 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@unaffiliated/stopanddecrypt] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:48 < jimpo> yep. but I think you can create pretty OK automated heuristics for that sort of thing if the protocol supported dual funder channels. 15:49 <+roasbeef> it's a budget thing realy, you may never want to unless the peer is white listed 15:49 <+roasbeef> and even w/ symmetric delay, if they're just mega rich, the cost to them is lower than that to you 15:49 < jimpo> Like if I have historically collected X in fees routing through you in the past, the software should be able to make some sort of decision as to whether allowing the channel is a good idea. 15:49 <+roasbeef> maaaybe 15:50 < jimpo> uh, cost in terms of bitcoin-hours should be the same 15:50 < jimpo> maybe in terms of marginal utility, not the same 15:50 < jimpo> but it never is 15:50 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@c-73-215-253-208.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev 15:50 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@c-73-215-253-208.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:50 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@unaffiliated/stopanddecrypt] has joined #lightning-dev 15:51 <+roasbeef> yeah i just mean ppl have diff values for their bitcon hours, if yours just auto commits what i do, then i can inconvinence you at low to nothing cost to myself 15:51 <+roasbeef> what if it was a loan lol 15:51 <+roasbeef> but yeh software can use heuritics to figure out what to commit, white lists with limits are an easy first step 15:51 < jimpo> yeah, the symmetrical delays and (pretty nominal) reserve amount are pretty minor incentives 15:52 <+roasbeef> lnd's dual funder channels ask for symmetric funds for the otehr side, if they don't wanna you just reject 15:52 < jimpo> oh, lnd has dual funder now? 15:52 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:53 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:54 <+roasbeef> it's had it 15:54 <+roasbeef> was coded before single funder, first thing i did, the logic is still there but not exposed on the wire 15:54 <+roasbeef> like funding resevation logic 15:59 < jimpo> OK, right 16:02 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:08 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #lightning-dev 16:16 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #lightning-dev 16:25 -!- froyer [~froyer@124.19.31.4] has joined #lightning-dev 16:25 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has joined #lightning-dev 16:30 -!- nodweber [~nodweber@unaffiliated/nodweber] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:34 -!- froyer [~froyer@124.19.31.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 16:34 -!- Jbaczuk [~Jbaczuk@174-23-53-9.slkc.qwest.net] 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