--- Log opened Tue Dec 11 00:00:48 2018
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06:37 -lightningrfc:#lightning-dev- [lightning-rfc] araspitzu opened pull request #533: BOLT#7 advise to signal temporary channel unavailability if unbalanced (and thus unable to relay). (master...channel_update_disable_if_unbalanced) https://git.io/fp7mI
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11:29 < treyzania> BOLT design question: why isn't there something like a user-agent field in the init message like the bitcoin p2p protocol or bittorrent has?
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11:33 < treyzania> see also: BIP-0014
11:35 < molz> treyzania, for what purpose?
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11:39 < treyzania> So that it'd be easier to have some awareness of what to expect from the peer on the other end of the connection.  I'm aware that feature flags exist but they're very specific for certain things.
11:40 < treyzania> Also if there was some sort of general "protocol version field" in the init message that would be useful for long-term interoperability
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12:26 < molz> treyzania, i prefer to have a field for what the node is being run on, like "rpi" or "no-rpi-but-excellent-hardware" so i can avoid the unstable rpis 
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12:38 < treyzania> molz: that doesn't help with feature negotiation though, which is my motivation
12:39 < molz> "feature negotiation"?
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12:43 < molz> treyzania, your motivation should be "what i can do to help improving this" and get involved in whatever capacity you can to help if you see an impl needs some improvement
12:43 < treyzania> the BOLT spec is a little underdeveloped wrt feature flags and "knowing what kind of peer you're connected to" in general: https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/blob/master/01-messaging.md#the-init-message
12:43 < molz> you don't target the peers because they run a certain impl that you dislike
12:43 < treyzania> no?  that's not what I'm talking about
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12:45 < treyzania> I'm more talking about that if my impl supports a cool feature how is a good way to communicate that I support those sets of messages.  Using the localfeatures flags is the logical way to go about that but the way they're being used makes it not really for talking about broad capabilities.
12:46 < treyzania> like, why is saying "I need a dump of all the nodes, can you give me this" a feature flag?  initial_routing_sync really should be a message not a flag.  feature flags for a peer shouldn't change depending on what it's doing.
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13:16 <+roasbeef> treyzania: you comminucate that using the set of feature bits, confused as to what you're requsting
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13:25 <+roasbeef> treyzania: your user agent is the node alias basically, what's your use case? 
13:26 < treyzania> roasbeef: node alias afaik right now is for naming nodes, you can't communicate "what software are you using" with it like you have with the bitcoin protocol
13:26 <+roasbeef> you can use it for w/e you want 
13:27 <+roasbeef> why do you need to know what software they're using? 
13:27 <+roasbeef> the bitcion protcool doesn't have anything like that, you can set the ua to garbage 
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13:27 <+roasbeef> look at browers, everyone just adverties firefox as their ua
13:28 < treyzania> that's true, but right now everyone sets some custom name for it so it's useless for identifying software
13:28 <+roasbeef> why do you need to identify software? you cannot do that reliably 
13:28 <+roasbeef> just use feature bits to identify functionality 
13:28 <+roasbeef> what's your use case?
13:29 < treyzania> we're trying to adapt Lit to work with BOLT and there's some features we have that aren't standardized
13:29 < treyzania> among other things
13:30 <+roasbeef> hmm, adapt as in how? it's a suuuuper diff implementation, would take a very large amount of work to adapt it
13:30 <+roasbeef> like in the years range
13:30 < treyzania> well that's what we're doing, we have init and ping/pong working, still looking into adapting our channel system :)
13:30 < treyzania> *channel management
13:31 <+roasbeef> why not just use lnd itself? all taht is implemented 
13:31 <+roasbeef> and it's non trivial as well
13:31 <+roasbeef> for example the commitment structure is super diff, and lit has no htlcs or multi-hop htlc off and on chain handling 
13:31 < treyzania> I didn't make the decision to do that, although we are using the lnd message serialization
13:31 < treyzania> lit has had htlcs since july
13:31 < treyzania> and multihop routing
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13:33 < treyzania> I'm also trying to figure out if it's worth trying to use BOLT for my Fulgurite experiment, I've talked about that on the mailing list a bit
13:37 < molz> oh.. you're a lit guy and you want 'useragent' feature for lightning nodes? cool, now i want that too, so i can ban all lit nodes :P 
13:38 < treyzania> that wasn't the original motivation...
13:38 < molz> you're not aware that 'useragent' has been used politically for bitcoin nodes? 
13:39 < molz> and anyone can change that, you can run a current bitcoin version but name it as 'abcbitcoin' or whatever you want
13:39 < treyzania> I'm aware it can be changed trivially, yes
13:41 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> You can overload the alias if you want, nothing stops that
13:44 < molz> why does lit now want to join LN ?
13:47 <+roasbeef> treyzania: how does the BOLT stuff interact w/ that experiment? if it's only lit doing it, then just like have a private testnet or something? 
13:48 < treyzania> roasbeef: for now we'd just use some high optional msgids, it's still waaay early to think about that though
13:48 < treyzania> molz: Because we want to?
13:49 <+roasbeef> gotcha, confused again as to what you're requesting lol
13:50 < treyzania> I'm a bit annoyed that feature flags are very very specific and there's no way to say "I don't support your channels but I can still relay payments and participate in routing"
13:51 <+roasbeef> they're not specific, they can say w/e you want 
13:51 <+roasbeef> you set one that requires your channels, then ppl won't connect to you, from there you'd need to understand the network level advertisements and protocol
13:52 <+roasbeef> treyzania: why don't y'all just use the lnd libs rather than re-implementing everything? all the libs are very well tested 
13:52 < treyzania> if we just used the lnd libs then we'd just be making lnd with a shittier interface
13:52 < treyzania> :P
13:53 < treyzania> plus we also want to do DLCs in channels
13:53 <+roasbeef> yeh you can just add that on 
13:53 <+roasbeef> you'd get the added reliability and test coverage and also not duplicate work that's already done 
13:53 <+roasbeef> ofc this is all up to you, just trying to save y'all some time and headaches 
13:54 < treyzania> I mean, yeah that's true.  not my decision tho.
13:55 <+roasbeef> tests being the biggest factor, as last i checked, unit tests were nearly non-existent 
13:56 < Varunram> ofc
13:56 < Varunram> we had watchtowers last year tho
13:56 <+roasbeef> and you reaaaally want thorough tests w/ this stuff if you're telling ppl to put money in it 
13:56 <+roasbeef> a very diff design though, one that isn't very flexible and also used a diff commitment design 
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13:56 < treyzania> there's *some* unit tests, I rewrote all the integration tests as well
13:57 < Varunram> <molz> why does lit now want to join LN ? << molz: lit was  the original LN :)
13:57 <+roasbeef> personally wouldn't feel very confident telling ppl to use stuff that had "some" tests
13:57 < Varunram> but lets not get into that now :)
13:57 < molz> Varunram, lol 
13:57 < treyzania> well we don't let it be used on mainnet except with vtc
13:57 <+roasbeef> if you define as having multi-hop, then wouldn't say that's true
13:58 <+roasbeef> the chain that got 51% attacked recently? 
13:58 < treyzania> (maybe)
13:58 < molz> Varunram, sure, bitcoin v0.1 is the original bitcoin, go run that software :P 
13:58 <+roasbeef> not very safe...
13:58 < Varunram> I guess that was vtc's personal decision, so if they want to lose funds, I guess fine :p
13:59 <+roasbeef> uhhh ok lol
13:59 < molz> isn't VTC dead after that 51% attack?
13:59 <+roasbeef> but back on topic...
13:59 < treyzania> ^
13:59 <+roasbeef> not dead, but idk why any one would use it, not a very secure chain at all, with no distinguishing factors 
14:00 < molz> lit guys have a lot to catch up, shouldn't be jumping in the LN protocol and ask for silly changes
14:00 <+roasbeef> i think they just want to advertise some feature bits 
14:00 < molz> should be looking at your software and change it to the BOLT protocol if you want to join in
14:00 <+roasbeef> which is possible, and does all they need afaict 
14:00 < Varunram> roasbeef: +1
14:01 < Varunram> molz: let's now get into an implementation war lol
14:01 < Varunram> not*
14:01 < treyzania> I didn't mean to come off as "asking for silly changes"...
14:01 <+roasbeef> well more so that you should try to understand the eixsting system before declaring that it's insufficient 
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14:02 < Varunram> but I think for the question asked above, advertising feature bits would work
14:03 <+roasbeef> but then who are the feature bits for? if BOLT nodes can't make channels at all with these new nodes, they basically don't exist from their PoV 
14:03 <+roasbeef> and nodes start to require many feature bits like the data loss protection stuff, so they'd need to impl that stuff to make stable connections to possibly insert their own channel advertisements 
14:04 < molz> Varunram, eh.. not my interest 
14:04 < treyzania> We'd like to avoid the scenario where we connect to another implementation and then they get confused when we refuse their channel request.
14:04 < molz> so much to be done for lightning than focusing on some silly impl
14:05 <+roasbeef> treyzania: so advertise a global bit of new chan type, and force a local bit to understand your chan type 
14:08 <+roasbeef> if you want to route payments, then you'll need to be able to connect to an existing BOLT node in order to tell them of those chans, and the advertisements need to be valid otherwise they'll reject em
14:09 <+roasbeef> alternativley you can just reject their funding requests w/ an error message as well to be able to listen on the gossip stuff 
14:10 < molz> oh gosh are we going to have a new set of problems with these lit nodes?
14:12 < treyzania> roasbeef: It'd be nice to be able to know beforehand if something isn't going to work instead of "try it and see if it breaks"
14:12 < Varunram> molz: treyzania is just asking a few questions related to lightning and BOLT, I don't see why lit / any aspiring implementation that wants to implement BOLT must be treated differently
14:13 <+roasbeef> treyzania: you know if it isn't going to work, see above how you can know
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14:18 < molz> Varunram, you put it backward, lit wants to be different than the rest of the others in LN. are you a lit guy or are you treyzania? he can speak for himself, can't he? 
14:18 < treyzania> roasbeef: How are global feature flags supposed to be used?  There aren't any in the 1.0 std for me to look at to compare how I'm supposed to use them
14:18 < Varunram> molz: I'm a "lit guy" (whatever that means), but I still don't get the hate
14:19 < molz> Varunram, i don't get your accusation either
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15:14 <+roasbeef> treyzania: it
15:14 <+roasbeef> treyzania: you set a global flag, that can inform nodes what features you have as you may or may not want to connect to them, that's it 
15:14 <+roasbeef> it's signalling and then up to you to connect or not
15:15 <+roasbeef> it can eventually be used for path finding level stuff as well, say we switch to sha3 or something for the htlc, you wan to know who you can route thru 
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16:49 < adiabat> molz: do you want more people working on lightning network? or fewer?
16:49 < molz> adiabat, have you asked yourself that question? i think it should be for you 
16:50 < molz> where you been until now?
16:51 < molz> and why now? when you never wanted to be a part of it, i thought you had a better network?
16:52 < molz> adiabat, but anyways, i'm glad you want to join in, hopefully for good? 
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16:54 < adiabat> if you want fewer implimentations and fewer people working on it, discouraging people from working on it is effective
16:58 < molz> adiabat, look... you've been absent, please don't show up with that attitude, i never said such a thing, you guys can keep your impl, just don't show up and expect things to change your way over night
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16:59 < adiabat> I'm generally not on this IRC channel because of stuff like this.  
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17:00 < adiabat> seems like treyzania is just trying to make suggestions on how interoperability could be improved, which seems cool to me
17:00 < adiabat> but anyway yeah, people can keep whatever implimentation they want
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17:01 < molz> adiabat, you know you guys can submit your prs on github and avoid petty arguments?
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17:58 <+roasbeef> treyzania: ok so i think the final flow would be: make a global feature bit to signal litness so other lit nodes can find them amongst the node ann stream, for nodes that don't have this global bit set, if they connect to open a channel, then reject it with an error message, extend lit to understand the channel announcements so they can produce them for their channels, announce these channels to the rest of the network, when accepting/forwarding htlcs
17:58 <+roasbeef> with that they can open channels lit-to-lit, and forward htlcs for the rest of the network
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--- Log closed Wed Dec 12 00:00:05 2018