--- Log opened Mon Jul 01 00:00:57 2019
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16:08 < Setherson> Hello, Everyone!
16:12 < Setherson> I'm so thankful for all that you developers are doing.  Really.  Now - I won't bother you with any more smalltalk.  I'll only bother you with meaningful questions.  :-)
16:14 < Setherson> Can anyone tell me how to find my public key@IP address, on my lightning app, so that I can connect to it with another node?
16:15 <+roasbeef> Setherson: probably a better topic for #lnd or our dev slack, but it isn't exposed in the UI atm, you can however obtain it from the logs, or connecting out to another node using the application 
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16:18 < Setherson> Thank you so much, Mr. Osuntokun!  I will dig around in the logs and see if I can discover it.  Since #lnd is the better channel for such questions, I'll move over there unless I have development questions for ya'll.
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18:57 < BlueMatt> ;;seen rusty
18:57 < gribble> rusty was last seen in #lightning-dev 1 week, 0 days, 4 hours, 29 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <rusty> OK, I have to go, but good progress.  Let's bikeshed later, OK!
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19:03 < BlueMatt> rusty: where are we on emergency rbf/rbf carve-out? I'd like to move forward with better fee management in lightning but need some resolution there.
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19:45 <+roasbeef> i think we can move forward w/ the anchor output stuff w/o going to fully zero (or minimal) fees on the commitment transaction, this can also be rolled out independently of any mempool changes as well, since this would be used for supplementary fees, rather than primary fees BlueMatt 
19:46 < BlueMatt> roasbeef: not really? I mean without some relay policy changes/commitment to changes on the network adding anchor outputs doesnt change the state we're in now
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19:46 <+roasbeef> they allow you to add more fees after broadcasting 
19:46 < BlueMatt> and doing it piecemeal means two breaking changes - one to add the anchor outputs, one to set fees to minimal(ish)
19:46 <+roasbeef> whereas rn if I force close i can't adjust at all afte rthe fact 
19:46 < BlueMatt> no they dont, not without some form of policy change
19:47 < BlueMatt> (or, they arent guaranteed to allow you to)
19:47 <+roasbeef> better than not being able to do anything at all (the current situation) 
19:47 < BlueMatt> the current situation is you're supposed to negotiate a reasonable fee upfront
19:47 < BlueMatt> adding low-value outputs doesn't change this
19:47 < BlueMatt> the negotiation problem still exists
19:47 <+roasbeef> i don't think there's two breaking changes there, it just reduuces the importance of setting the "corret" fee with UpdateFee 
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19:48 < BlueMatt> even worse, depending on *which* proposal ends up going in core we may have to change the output format again
19:48 <+roasbeef> at the very least it gives the non-initiator a mechanism to speed things uup if they want to 
19:48 < BlueMatt> no it doesnt reduce the importance
19:48 < BlueMatt> only against an honest attacker
19:48 < BlueMatt> which, kinda defeats the point of an "attacker"
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19:49 <+roasbeef> what is a threat model 
19:49 < BlueMatt> an attacker wishes to slow down confirmation until a timeout is reached (in whatever form)
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19:49 <+roasbeef> stuff can be rolled out to improve the situation today, any relay mempool changes have an indeterminate timeline 
19:50 < BlueMatt> I mean we can probably get whatever we think is right into core, so lets decide on what we think is right, and go from there
19:50 < BlueMatt> not if we actually do the work
19:50 < BlueMatt> getting things upstream into core isn't that hard if we make up our mind on what we want and put in a bit of work
19:50 < BlueMatt> hence my question to rusty :p
19:52 < BlueMatt> roasbeef: do you have any opinions on the carve-out-vs-emergency-rbf discussion?
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19:56 <+roasbeef> if there're two anchor outputs, each of whhich are spendable by one of the unique channel peers, then does this rbf stuff matter at all? we have distinct replacement sets 
19:57 < BlueMatt> yes, one peer can add a big tree off one anchor making adding soething to the ther anchor impossible
19:58 < BlueMatt> thats...the whole point of the rbf carve-out discussion
19:58 <+roasbeef> but there're two diff outputs, so how does spends from one impact the other? 
19:58 < BlueMatt> they both spend the same, unconfirmed parent
19:58 <+roasbeef> i follow that if we're spending from the same output, so we have the same replacement set 
19:59 < BlueMatt> this isnt about rbf, this is about whether you can even add something to the tx off your anchor at all to begin with
19:59 < BlueMatt> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2018-November/016518.html (and the thread that follows) discusses it a bunch
19:59  * rusty wakes up...
19:59 < BlueMatt> lol here I was thinking rusty was an early riser....oops
20:00 < rusty> OK, so the current policy is a bandaid, but I do understand people not wanting to make it *worse*.  TBH, everyone today could start massively spamming RBFing their existing txs once for every sat/byte they were willing to spend.  OTOH, nobody is, so let's not make it worse.
20:01 < rusty> So, if bitcoin is not going to actually fix the problem, what's the minimal hack?
20:01 < BlueMatt> indeed, current policy is *bad*, but luckily there is one Big Knob that quickly makes it Less Bad (fee-per-vbyte-relayed)
20:01 < BlueMatt> that increases min tx fee as a side-effect, but in the case of dos, that may be ok
20:02 < BlueMatt> adding multipliers to how bad it is, aside from just generally dont-make-a-bad-thing-worse, means the Big Knob has more of an effect on legit users
20:02 < rusty> The proposal to do some "emergency RBF" fails the "make things worse" test.
20:05 < rusty> The fixes to that seem to all involve some marking of the tx (eg. locktime = 0x1eaf), which we already abuse for lightning, and feels horribly ugly (it's transient information, persisting in the tx itself)
20:06 < rusty> eg. leaf-marked txs can only gather total weight 20k (unf. we need to allow one child, so we can push it).
20:06 < BlueMatt> I mean you could imagine some ancillary signed data which is included in some form of package relay proposal
20:06 < BlueMatt> which allows that to not be in the tx itself
20:07 < BlueMatt> though I admit I think that also feels pretty ugly
20:07 < BlueMatt> (checking a signature over one policy-only bit...)
20:07 < rusty> Yeah, but if we're going to go that far, let's just fix the network to bias against non-immanent txs and make them trickle out so slowly DoS isn't a problem.
20:08 < rusty> So, I think we return to your carve-out as the best candidate.
20:09 < BlueMatt> the least bad of shitty solutions :/
20:10 < rusty> Yep!  There are worse things, though.
20:12 < BlueMatt> alright, well a Concept ACK on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15681 would be appreciated and I can go push it for 0.19 (ie by eoy we should be good to go, though if its coming down the line we can write code for it sooner, of course)
20:12 <+roasbeef> from teh second reply in that post above, seems russell o'connor makes the same point: rbf doesn't matter here and the honest party should be able to get their traansaction in by making a pacakge w/ a higher fee rate
20:13 < BlueMatt> your addition of a single tx on your output *is* an rbf from the point of view of relay rules, as your counterparty has otherwise made the package very large and you need to evict something
20:14 <+roasbeef> are these relay rules documented anywhere? the interaction between cpfp and rfb during block construction isn't clear 
20:14 < BlueMatt> but rusell's point is that isn't *striclty* a change to bip 125, its not *really* an rbf discussion, more of a "can you relay this at all" discussion
20:14 <+roasbeef> what will tha tsecond transaction be rbf'ing? 
20:16 < BlueMatt> commitment tx has 25 dependencies, now you can't add another one or you violate the package limits
20:16 < BlueMatt> I'm sure they're documented *somewhere*, though adittedly don't know where
20:16 <+roasbeef> it's a more "shallow" decendent though right? seems as though they should be tracked as two packages: one with depth 2 and one with depth 25, if it confirms, it confirms 
20:17 < BlueMatt> no, because if I rbf the comimtment tx (not possible in lightning, but in any other package), then you have to evict 26 things
20:17 < BlueMatt> which violates the point of the package liimt - cpu dos concerns
20:18 <+roasbeef> ok, but we can't rbf it atm, so this doesn't apply and we're gucci? 
20:18 < BlueMatt> no, because those package limits apply to everything
20:18 <+roasbeef> for our use case at least 
20:19 <+roasbeef>  /insert jackie chan tf meme
20:19 < BlueMatt> there are other cpu doss involved in packages
20:19 < BlueMatt> eg calculating what to put in a block blows up
20:19 < BlueMatt> anyway, 
20:19  * BlueMatt -> sleep
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20:26 <+roasbeef> ok I think you're referring to this? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/d0f81a96d9c158a9226dc946bdd61d48c4d42959/src/txmempool.cpp#L186 
20:30 <+roasbeef> so even if i'm spending w/ 1 transaction, and there's 25 bloated kids hanging onto it, inclusion of mine will be rejected? seems as thouugh it should prefer that depth 2 package with a total higher fee rate and less space consumed 
20:37 < rusty> roasbeef: yeah, but the RBF rules exist to protect the network from spam, not to align with miner incentives :(
20:38 < rusty> (Which is why I was trying to find something better...)
20:38 <+roasbeef> wouldn't that alternative action lead to less spam? long things get dropped from the mempool in favor of more fee dense things 
20:47 < rusty> roasbeef: naah, you can keep doing that almost forever.
20:47 <+roasbeef> you mean re-adding the longer one, then evicting it again? why's that matter as long as they pay the fees for it? 
20:48 <+roasbeef> seems this just wants to penalize big unconf chains, it can do that by factoring the proper depth in the code section I linked above 
20:49 < rusty> roasbeef: You can create MB of low-fee txs, then evict them with a simple normal-rate ones.
20:49 <+roasbeef> with many normal rates, or just one? if just one then that's a Good Thing as I have a smaller mempool now, and less links to traverse when making package decisions 
20:50 < rusty> roasbeef: sure, but you've spammed the network checking and propagating those txs, which seems to be the concern.
20:50 <+roasbeef> if this was the same input being spent, then i'd say yeah
20:50 <+roasbeef> wait, actually 
20:51 <+roasbeef> no yeh, it's another tree entirely in this case (two anchor outputs), so why does the bad side of the family tree matter at all here, those can all confirm themselves on their own time once the parent does, this package landing in the chain doesn't invalidate them 
21:01 < rusty> Wires crossed I think.  But you'd have to ask Matt....
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