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14:18 < joosth> Hi everybody, I was wondering if it's possible to just reload the config for lnd?
14:18 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> Without restarting?
14:18 < joosth> yes
14:19 < lndbot> <alexbosworth> No it's not possible
14:19 < joosth> cool, thanks
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16:58 < rusty> aj: you around?  IRC might provide more bandwidth for design...
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17:01 < aj> rusty: hey
17:01 < aj> rusty: i don't think secp256k1 helps with AAA...ZZZ privacy. maybe pairing crypto might
17:01 < rusty> aj: I don't understand how the correlation is broken by pay-full-amount-then-refund?  Though I like the idea for other reasons.
17:02 < rusty> aj: yeah, I couldn't come up with anything.
17:02 < aj> rusty: it makes the refund-amount differ at each step, and the "full amount" can be a protocol level constant
17:02 < aj> rusty: doesn't help with the hash at all, and i'm not 100% sure the details work out
17:02 < rusty> Ack, nice.
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17:03 < rusty> Yes, decorrelation is Hard.  On another note, I've been thinking about the PoW / sats tradeoff.
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17:05 < rusty> There's one piece of data we could use to eliminate PoW; the next_hop scid.  Say hash of that + recent blockhash % 15 -> amount of discount.  Risk is that we end up also leaking fwd data...
17:06 < rusty> If we stick with PoW though, each node could set "number of leading zeros" (required), so you have to grind then you get a discount for each additional zero (up to N-1, so it's never completely free).
17:06 < rusty> That gives roasbeef his ability to ratchet it up under stress, and lets us adjust if PoW is too easy.
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17:07 < aj> rusty: i put the PoW in the think-about-it-later basket; i hand-waved to myself that you could put in some other function than "number-of-bits" to get a different distribution and solve any problems that ways; i think we could make grinding easier or harder by tweaking the formula too
17:07 < aj> "each node could set number of leading zeroes required" -- is that one of those global channel params announced in gossip?
17:08 < rusty> Fair enough; I really think we'll need some source of noise.  
17:08 < rusty> aj: yeah.
17:08 < aj> yeah, the noise is a great idea, i just focus on the negatives :)
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17:09 < rusty> OK, so now we need to figure out how to decorrelate these refund credits.
17:09 < aj> s/now/sometime before schnorr goes live/ :)
17:10 < aj> or everyone implements 2pecdsa for lightning i guess
17:11 < rusty> Well, the timing of spam attacks is probably indep of schnorr, though I'd expect similar timelines.
17:12 < aj> right, but no point worrying about decorrelation if the htlc-hash is correlatable
17:13 < aj> so can implement ~ as specced now, and just add it as tech debt for switching to schnorr :-/
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17:33 < rusty> aj: "I don't know if this is possible" isn't tech debt, it's research.
17:33 < rusty> I'll keep thinking about it, maybe ask some cleverer people...
17:35 < aj> rusty: yeah
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18:33 < rusty> aj: ok, I have half an idea (inefficient).  What if each hop gets given (by previous hop) a score table of Schnorr sigs: each sig maps to a number of refund credits.  The onion contains a tweak, and a sig.  It checks that sig works to give it the credits it expects, then uses the tweak to modify the score table, and hands it on.
18:39 < rusty> Hmm, no, doesn't work.
18:40 < rusty> (Bob can't turn Carol's sig into the higher-value sig he needs to give Alice, and he needs something he *doesn't* know from Carol anyway...)
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21:12 < rusty> bitconner, roasbeef: weird bug report about signature mismatches after our initial update_fee.  https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/issues/3253 it looks like lnd is ignoring the update_fee.  We literally print it out immediately before sending, so I can't see how it's our end.  Is there an older lnd which has some known issue here?   Really scratching my head here, since if this was broken we'd all know about it...
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--- Log closed Mon Nov 11 00:00:04 2019