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18:00 < bsm117532> Is there any kind of "pay to anyone" functionality in Lightning? (e.g. if you find a hash preimage, and can route to this node, you can claim a bounty)
18:00 < zmnscpxj> You mean you want to *claim* from some other node?
18:01 < zmnscpxj> i.e. a node publishes a hash to everybody, then if some anonymous happens to stumble on the preimage, they can *anonymously* claim money from it?
18:01 < zmnscpxj> or...
18:01 < zmnscpxj> ?
18:02 < bsm117532> yes, correct.
18:03 < bsm117532> Half-baked idea is inspired by Sharon Goldberg's talk on better cross-chain atomic swaps: https://twitter.com/MITBitcoinClub/status/1236718052638699522
18:03 < zmnscpxj> no, there is no way to do that safely.
18:04 < zmnscpxj>  what happens when the preimage gets published onchain? Then either the node putting up the bounty sees it onchain and refuses to release offcahin, or somebody else sees it onchain and manages to beat you to the bounty-giving node?
18:04 < bsm117532> She's publishing preimages on Ethereum to guarantee half of an atomic swap gets executed.
18:04 < bsm117532> i'm wondering if I can publish the preimage in a Lightning tx and pay someone to relay it to the main chain's mempool.
18:04 < zmnscpxj> Then just use the current push semantics instead of putting a pull semantic?
18:05 < zmnscpxj> i.e. somebody offers an offchain-to-onchain swap service, you tell them of a hash, you route a payment to them, then publish the preimage onchain yourself to claim the onchain funds
18:05 < zmnscpxj> then the offchain-to-onchain service can claim the payment offchain
18:06 < zmnscpxj> I mean.... if all you need is atomic swaps, a payment on Lightning is a chain of atomic swaps......
18:06 < bsm117532> Not quite. I want to embed the signed swap tx in a Lightning message, and offer a bounty to get it relayed to main chain mempool.
18:06 < bsm117532> I want to pay a lightning node to relay a tx that is NOT part of a lightning channel.
18:07 < bsm117532> tx is a payload, not a channel.
18:07 < zmnscpxj> when does the target get paid? on mere *relay*? or confirmation onchain?
18:07 < bsm117532> preimage comes from seeing an on-chain tx with that preimage.
18:07 < bsm117532> target gets paid when the tx hits the bitcoin mempool. (How to guarantee that is another question...)
18:08 < bsm117532> Hence, focusing on "pay to any".  Bounty for a hash...
18:08 < zmnscpxj> no, because bounty for a hash is unsafe, as I pointed out
18:08 < zmnscpxj> anyone who discovers the preimage can claim from you.
18:09 < bsm117532> Correct, and that's what I want.
18:09 < zmnscpxj> if you release it to the first one, that first one who *REACHES YOU* is not necessarily the first one *GLOBALLY*
18:09 < bsm117532> The first guy to see the preimage (on e.g. Litecoin) can claim the bounty
18:09 < zmnscpxj> so why would anyone do this kind of service for you?
18:09 < zmnscpxj> so that is it? they just see the preimage? no tx mempool relay?
18:09 < bsm117532> The idea is to be able to perform an atomic swap while offline. You do the setup and walk away.
18:10 < zmnscpxj> the reason why you cannot walk away is not because of the hashlock, the reason is because of the timelock
18:10 < bsm117532> Assume (magic) there is a way to prove that the entity receiving payment relayed something to the blockchain also. (Throw in an SPV proof or something)
18:10 < zmnscpxj> if the other side does not claim, you *have to* reclaim the timelock
18:10 < zmnscpxj> then what you want is transaction confirmation, not mempool relay
18:11 < zmnscpxj> and you should be asking miners, i.e. bumping tx fees
18:11 < bsm117532> The transaction I want relayed is a BTC tx dependent on a hash revealed in a LTC tx
18:12 < zmnscpxj> But if you key your payment on the same preimage, then I can just look at the LTC blockchain and not bother to relay the BTC tx
18:12 < bsm117532> Can't have tx confirmation without mempool relay, and I want to be offline when that happens.
18:12 < zmnscpxj> and once I have claimed the payment, nobody has any incentive to actually relay the BTC tx
18:13 < bsm117532> zmnscpxj: correct. The idea depends on being able to prove I relayed it. (assume *magic*)
18:13 < zmnscpxj> mempool relay is just a privacy technique. you could contact a miner directly without relaying
18:13 < bsm117532> Can't contact anyone offline.
18:13 < zmnscpxj> I mean, if we are presuming magic anyway
18:13 < bsm117532> I mean, Sharon's atomic swap is a symmetric Tier-Nolan swap, with 3 timelocks.
18:14 < zmnscpxj> your problem looks nearer to watchtowers (if a tx appears, relay this other tx) than lightning itself.
18:14 < bsm117532> In some way I'm looking to offer a Lightning bounty for a watchtower function, yes.
18:14 < zmnscpxj> there is no safe way to offer a bounty offchain, no
18:14 < zmnscpxj> I already said that
18:14 < bsm117532> Can you elaborate on why it's unsafe? I don't understand.
18:15 < zmnscpxj> .......
18:15 < zmnscpxj>  can just look at the LTC blockchain and not bother to relay the BTC tx
18:15 < zmnscpxj>  and once I have claimed the payment, nobody has any incentive to actually relay the BTC tx
18:15 < bsm117532> Yeah ok so I have to invent a way to prove that the redeemer relayed it too, I know.
18:15 < zmnscpxj> just to mess with you
18:15 < zmnscpxj> which you cannot do: mempools are unprovable
18:15 < bsm117532> But, suspending disbelief on that point, is there any other reason it's unsafe?
18:15 < zmnscpxj> because they are never committed to by anyone
18:16 < bsm117532> Yes I think the redeemer will have to prove it was not just broadcast, but mined too.
18:16 < bsm117532> (and that he did it)
18:16 < zmnscpxj> Because payments can only be keyed on hashes, they cannot be keyed to release on "hash + magic zk-proof"
18:17 < bsm117532> Yes, but a lightning channel update CAN be keyed on something more complex.
18:17 < zmnscpxj> no, I mean the magic zk-proof thing has to be provable onchain
18:17 < bsm117532> ah, yeah, good point.
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18:17 < zmnscpxj> because you cannot key any LN channel update that cannot be dropped onchain
18:17 < zmnscpxj> else people can abuse this to steal funds from intermdiate nodes
18:17 < bsm117532> of course
18:18 < bsm117532> <insert magik zk-proof here>
18:18 < zmnscpxj> so you (1) need to have some magic zk-proof-of-mempool (which is impossible because nobody commits to mempool) and (2) you need to convince bitcoin core to add this zk-proof onchain
18:18 < bsm117532> I admit I'm still thinking about that part. I don't have a solution. I thought a bit about zk proofs but you're right, has to be provable on-chain. I don't have a better idea yet.
18:18 < zmnscpxj> your other alternative is to be online to check the zk-proof-of-mempool yourself, which defeats the entire point
18:19 < zmnscpxj> i.e. smart contracts unchained
18:20 < bsm117532> I googled: https://zmnscpxj.github.io/bitcoin/unchained.html
18:20 < zmnscpxj> you could have a smart contracts unchained federation that is always online (for some definition of "always"), but that is not much different from what a watchtower does
18:24 < bsm117532>  So basically, scriptless scripts plus an ajudication service? Yeah that would work.
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18:27 < bsm117532> FWIW I usually lobby for the ZEXE approach there -- the parties should always be able to produce a correct ZKP.
18:27 < bsm117532> But anyway, we're now diverging wildly from Lightning...
18:28 < bsm117532> I got my answer, there is no "pay to anyone" functionality. ;-)
18:28 < bsm117532> thanks zmnscpxj
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18:47 < zmnscpxj> yes, not safe to implement.
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21:34 < snoozingbedbug> Is this already how lightning works?   https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/ff1tqo/can_someone_explain_why_this_isnt_possible/
21:36 < zmnscpxj> At a high-enough level that omits all the important details, yes.
21:37 < zmnscpxj> the important thing is ensuring that the existence of a transaction with sequence N invalidates every transaction with sequence M with M < N
21:37 < zmnscpxj> ***how*** to do that invalidation is the hard part that the treatment completely elides
21:41 < zmnscpxj> In Poon-Dryja the invalidation is done by revoking the outputs of the transaction.
21:41 < zmnscpxj> In Decker-Russell-Osuntokun the invalidation is done by re-spending the output of an update transaction before the settlement can be valid
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--- Log closed Mon Mar 09 00:00:17 2020