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00:57 < darosior> Script size I guess ?
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01:09 < jeremyrubin> darosior: yeah I know the motivation just not the security analysis
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08:31 < dfmb_> Whats the incentive to run a node compatible with segwit that can be 4x bigger than a legacy node ?
08:41 < buZz> eh
08:41 < buZz> you wouldnt be able to sync the bitcoin blockchain with one that doesnt support segwit
08:41 < buZz> how's that for motivation? :D
08:42 < cdecker> Actually you would, segwit is perfectly backwards compatible (soft-fork), but you wouldn't be able to verify signatures, you'd just be following whatever miners say is valid for segwit
08:43 < buZz> ah yeah right, thats a bit difficult to use then ;)
08:43 < dfmb_> so bascily bitcoin blocksize is now 4Mb
08:43 < buZz> i havent seen any node capable of syncing without verification though
08:43 < buZz> dfmb_: 4MB, but yeah
08:43 < dfmb_> that sucks
08:44 < buZz> realistically its closer to 2MB
08:44 < buZz> as many ppl are still not using segwit while doing many tx, like bitpay for instance
08:44 < dfmb_> I still dont understand how as taht a soft fork
08:45 < dfmb_> was*
08:45 < dfmb_> if block sizes are now bigger than 1MB
08:45 < cdecker> buZz: nodes do verify, but segwit just looks always valid from their perspective, segwit nodes know to look up the segregated witness and verify that as well
08:46 < cdecker> non-segwit nodes will just stop at the first "always-valid" stage and accept that
08:46 < buZz> ah yeah , i remember
08:46 < cdecker> dfmb_: the blocksize didn't change, we just have an extra location where we can stash extra information (segregated witnesses)
08:47 < cdecker> So each block now has the old format block, and an associated list of witneses for each transaction that will be ignored by non-segwit nodes
08:47 < dfmb_> why do we need that extra information ?
08:48 < dfmb_> This is so confusing , how is it supposed to a non developer understand all this shit
08:49 < cdecker> Non-developers aren't supposed to know about it at this level
08:51 < dfmb_> "So each block now has the old format block, and an associated list of witneses for each transaction that will be ignored by non-segwit nodes" --- : Alright, but how does that make fees go lower ?
08:52 < buZz> segwit transactions are smaller inside the block
08:52 < buZz> less bytes = less fees
08:52 < buZz> iirc using bech32 makes em even smaller
08:53 < cdecker> Almost: the trick is that we now can stuff more fee-paying transactions in a block, reducing fee-pressure on the transactions
08:53 < dfmb_> but why do u need the witness data and not just remove that and keep blocks at 1MBwith more transactions ?
08:54 < cdecker> Bech32 is only a human-level encoding, on the wire the addresses are all encoded as scripts, so no reduction due to that
08:54 < buZz> cdecker: ah, guess i understood wrong then
08:54 < dfmb_> how is segwit better than just increasing blocksize , like bcash ?
08:54 < cdecker> dfmb_: you can't verify the validity of  transaction without the witness
08:55 < dfmb_> so basicly we just incresaed the blocksize wiouth needing to hard fork
08:55 < cdecker> dfmb_: the important bit is that it is backwards-compatible, "simple" blocksize increases break non-upgraded nodes, since they'd still enforce the 1MB blocksize limit
08:55 < dfmb_> what a shit show
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08:55 < cdecker> dfmb_: watch your language please...
08:55 < buZz> cdecker: ah yeah, P2SH is what increases the size
08:55 < dfmb_> so why not make it 8MB
08:55 < cdecker> Exactly
08:56 < cdecker> dfmb_: because we can't just move all pieces of data into the witness region
08:57 < michaelfolkson> dfmb_ Read up on SegWit. It solved other problems too like transaction malleability and quadratic hashing https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/london-bitcoin-devs/2020-04-29-kalle-rosenbaum-grokking-bitcoin/
08:58 < dfmb_> I jsut dont get why is it bad if fees go up and blocks are max size
08:58 < dfmb_> if u jsut want low fees and fast transaction go use visa
08:58 < buZz> visa takes months to settle
08:58 < cdecker> Right, forgot about the malleability fix, oops xD
08:59 < michaelfolkson> dfmb_ In terms of why block size can't be too big: https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/magicalcryptoconference/2019/why-block-sizes-should-not-be-too-big/
08:59 < cdecker> Just a word of caution: "simple" solutions are very often also wrong solutions in this space ^^
09:00 < dfmb_> taht what i worry about
09:00 < dfmb_> but like
09:00 < dfmb_> that why i dont udnerstand why community was fine with increasing blocksize 
09:00 < dfmb_> Last question: Why was it acceptable to increase the blocksize by segwit and not with the gavin proposal in bitxoin xt
09:01 < buZz> exponential growth isnt wanted
09:01 < dfmb_> right and how u know someone is not gonna find a solution to bypass a hardfork and increase the blocksize by double or more
09:02 < buZz> you can fork away all you want
09:02 < dfmb_> im sure nobody thout segwit was possibel in 2k13
09:02 < buZz> yeah took till 2015 before a segwit bip was written
09:03 < cdecker> dfmb_: the reason is that segwit is backward compatible (no node gets kicked out of the network) while the other proposals where not (nodes that didn't upgrade are left behind, exposing them to numerous attacks...)
09:04 < buZz> just like how everyone is abandoning BCH now ;)
09:04 < buZz> evidenced by the <200kb avg blocksize
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09:06 < dfmb_> cdecker that makes sense : )
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09:10 < dfmb_> Theres a reason bitcoin core full nodes running are going down
09:10 < dfmb_> blockchain is getting too big for average joe to run it in their homes
09:10 < tryphe> dfmb_, it wasn't really a block size increase, it was a change in the way block size is calculated relative to contents
09:11 < buZz> its not going down
09:11 < buZz> https://bitnodes.io/dashboard/?days=730
09:12 < buZz> constantly >7500 (visible) nodes
09:12 < buZz> those dips are just updates, cloudcomputingplatform outages, etc
09:13 < dfmb_> https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-node-count-falls-to-3-year-low-despite-price-surge
09:13 < dfmb_> luke calcualtions are different 
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09:13 < buZz> those are estimates, indeed , not data
09:14 < dfmb_> yeah ur link is also estimantes not data so ...
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09:14 < buZz> nope, those are actual data
09:14 < buZz> Chart shows the number of reachable nodes during the last 730 days.
09:15 < tryphe> dfmb_, the number of nodes went up with the price, and down with the price, that article isn't really good info...
09:15 < tryphe> dfmb_, if the price goes up again they could just write an article on how the number of nodes is the "healthiest ever" or some nonsense
09:16 < buZz> yeah coindesk is mostly just marketing
09:16 < dfmb_> its luke jr data one of bitcoin devs
09:16 < dfmb_> not coindesk marketing
09:16 < dfmb_> i tend to believe luke jr data mroe tahn a randoms ite called bitnodes
09:17 < tryphe> plus the number of nodes isn't actually indicative of anything. what percentage of those nodes actually relayed transactions and blocks without huge downtime is probably something that counts for much more than a simple node count.
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09:18 < dfmb_> yeah taht why luke jr calcualtiosna re probably more accurate
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09:18 < buZz> dfmb_: you can believe anything you want, but its not data , its a guess
09:18 < buZz> bitnodes is data, they show how they measure it publicly
09:19 < buZz> believing guesses over actual data is just weird :P could build a religion on that
09:19 < tryphe> if you measure the number of people eating cereal on a saturady morning, you're going to get lots of people eating cereal, but does that mean by saturday night people should sell their kelloggs stock? :p
09:20 < tryphe> the same is true with bitcoin node count and price
09:21 < dfmb_> I think its simple logic that since blockchain size is growing at bigger rate than technology can keep up with, and since each day it becomes harder to run a full node, not sure how community still aproves block size increases
09:22 < tryphe> but it's more economical to run a verifying node than 5 years ago
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09:24 < dfmb_> Each day bitcoin becomes more centralized cause full nodes are getting more concentrated among a specific group of people that have hardware to run full nodes rather than every bitcoin user, what eprcentage of people that use bitcoin now run full nodse now compared to 3 years ago ? And how is this not a problem ...
09:25 < buZz> tryphe: who cares about actual data!
09:25 < buZz> assumptions rule!
09:25 < dfmb_> lol what tryphe
09:25 < dfmb_> thats not true
09:26 < tryphe> depends what you mean by full node dfmb_, very few nodes actually need to seed blocks
09:26 < buZz> the storage needed for a fullchain is under 10 euros now
09:26 < buZz> in 1TB disks
09:26 < buZz> the cpu effort required also went down a log
09:26 < dfmb_> storage is not the problem
09:26 < buZz> a lot*
09:26 < tryphe> yeah dfmb_, hardware is cheaper, disk space is cheaper, and there are more configuation options, and performance improvements
09:26 < dfmb_> storage is the elast of the problems
09:26 < buZz> and cpus also use way less power now
09:27 < dfmb_> bandwith is the real problem
09:27 < buZz> also bandwidth required is lower
09:27 < buZz> and bandwidths for consumer connections increased a lot in the last 10 yrs
09:27 < dfmb_> u can runa full with 10GB os space
09:27 < tryphe> bandwidth isn't the problem, like 5 aws instances can serve the entire world enough bandwidth for blocks
09:27 < buZz> hell, you dont even need internet for a fully synced node now
09:28 < dfmb_> lol
09:28 < tryphe> and the other traffic hardly needs any bandwidth
09:28 < tryphe> you can even turn off relaying transactions, which is a lot of chatter
09:28 < dfmb_> blockstream satellite ua re jsut realyign that it is accurate info
09:28 < dfmb_> if that it what u talkign about
09:28 < buZz> yes, they are jsut realyign
09:28 < dfmb_> its not decentrqalized al all
09:29 < buZz> maybe read your sentences before pressing enter?
09:29 < tryphe> block storage doesn't need to be decentralized if everyone can verify if new blocks are legit or not
09:30 < buZz> ah, 1 week old nickserv account, its a troll :)
09:30 < buZz> a supporttroll, one of the fancier kinds
09:30 < buZz> what does that pay nowadays?
09:30 < tryphe> meh buZz, i think these are easy misconceptions to have
09:31 < buZz> true, they are easy targets for supporttrolling
09:32 < tryphe> block seeding is kinda like hosting torrents though, you don't need an equal amount of seeds to peers, that wouldn't even be a realistic goal. instead very few seeds that have the bandwidth do most of the heavy lifying
09:32 < tryphe> lifting*
09:33 < tryphe> and while people with little bandwidth might trying seeding, they're still small game compared to those with big bandwidth
09:34 < tryphe> trying/try*\
09:34 < tryphe> i have way too many keyboards on this desk
09:36 < dfmb_> blockstream sattelite is actually cool 
09:36 < tryphe> it's true though dfmb_, people could host bitcoin blocks on their dsl connections, and they'd still be contributing almost nothing in comparison to major vps providers and those next to an internet exchange
09:37 < tryphe> so it doesn't really make sense to force anyone to do that
09:38 < tryphe> besides, blocks are secondary information anyways, you don't even need them after you've parsed what you need to parse
09:38 < tryphe> which is different from node to node
09:40 < dfmb_> Don't take me seriously, im just a dumb guy trying to understand complicated stuff by askinda dumb questions after reading a good amount fo stuff and retaining barely anything
09:40 < dfmb_> What is even a supporttroll lol
09:41 < dfmb_> curiosu to know buZz
09:41 < tryphe> it's perfectly fine dfmb_, we're just here to provide information
09:42 < dfmb_> Thoughts about this is and why he is wrong ? https://twitter.com/LukeDashjr/status/1257659440574185474
09:42 < tryphe> unfortunately there's lots of misinformation and people shill this kind of thing for their shitcoin investment or something
09:43 < dfmb_> hm luke jr is probably one of the guys taht i read stuff about that probably understand bitcoin the best and has been a bitcoin developer since really early,a nd he is not a shitcoiner
09:44 < dfmb_> jsut curious why people here thing that he is wrong 
09:45 < tryphe> i tend to agree with luke's notion that we need smaller blocks rather than bigger blocks, but there's tons of implications there, like probably hundreds of pages of discussion required for him to explain (and this is twitter)
09:45 < dfmb_> that's really ironic for u to say
09:45 < dfmb_> really interisting
09:45 < dfmb_> response
09:46 < dfmb_> after i bascily made the argument he maeks and u said i was a troll
09:46 < tryphe> everyone having an opinion on block size is kind of irrelevant though, it's like layman people trying to decide on how many fuel cells to put in a nuclear reactor
09:47 < dfmb_> nvm was the buzz guy srry
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09:48 < tryphe> even if everyone thinks they know the right answer, they're missing out on entire fields of stufy with key information. that and they assume that the current state of things will stay the same
09:48 < tryphe> stufy/study*
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09:49 < tryphe> and the nuclear reactor analogy is a good one, if you get too many gung-ho people trying to get the most output out of a system, you get chernobyl
09:50 < tryphe> so we could even increase the block size to 100MB and think it's fine for a year or whatever, but that's having little foresight
09:51 < tryphe> there's so many other things you could change that it's almost useless at some point to suggest an increase at all
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09:56 < dfmb_> the bigger block size debate is over, i think anyone with a brain cell left understands bigger blocks are not a solution
09:57 < tryphe> yeah it's like telling toyota to put bigger wheels on their cars so they can go faster
09:57 < dfmb_> lol
09:57 < tryphe> when in fact wheels have gotten a lot smaller in the past 100 years
09:58 < tryphe> no one would have written around in 1910 with a 13" wheelbase :D
09:58 < tryphe> written/ridden*
09:59 < tryphe> but they didn't have good roads or advanced suspension and all that jazz, so maybe big wheels were a good idea then
10:00 < tryphe> you could say the same without lightning, that 100MB blocks are a great idea, but when people start using it, maybe a push for 300kB blocks will begin
10:00 < dfmb_> since its clear now taht bigger blocks are not a solution, why are smaller blocks in bitcoin worst for the long term sucess of bitcoin that the current block size ?
10:01 < dfmb_> why would a soft fork of bitcoin to 300Kb per block be worse than the current 1MB per block
10:01 < tryphe> yeah i mean it's almost hard to argue either way without any concrete view of the future
10:01 < dfmb_> Im assuming we have fully functioning sidechains
10:01 < dfmb_> whcih we dont ahve rn
10:02 < dfmb_> its pretty easy toa rgue in favor of block size reduction tho
10:03 < tryphe> imagine if we totally replaced blocks in 20 years with propogation of some other, more selective data structures. now that would deem the blocksize debate hilariously useless :p
10:04 < tryphe> after all, the transaction network is already a different topology from the block propogation network
10:06 < dfmb_> i jsut realized i was in #lightning-dev and not on #bitcoin
10:06 < dfmb_> i benn spamming this shit with useless rants on a dev channel
10:06 < dfmb_> yikes
10:07 < tryphe> you might get better answers in here though :D
10:09 < dfmb_> maybe, whoe knows : )
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10:24 < mol> Luke Jr is the guy that championed for the success of UASF to get segwit to pass.. and then turns around trying to get the blocksize decreased.. Idk, maybe it's his hobby :P 
10:25 < mol> but Segwit is here to stay and it's the core for the development of lightning
10:36 < tryphe> yeah, and more often than not, i've seen his quotes being used out of context in support for the thing he was against when the quote was made
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10:55 < mol> well he seems to confuse people
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11:46 < michaelfolkson> I think he understands consensus more than most. There was huge pressure to increase the block size in 2017. That pressure doesn't exist today. If anything there would probably be greater consensus to decrease than increase today.
11:47 < michaelfolkson> Plus SegWit was a lot more than an effective block size increase. If it was just that you might have a point
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12:02 < mol_> no, there's hardly enough any support to decrease the blocksize today
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12:07 < michaelfolkson> Probably not, I'd agree with you. But more support than increasing it. That is my sense anyway
12:08 < ghost43> well increasing it is a hard fork, so that starts at a huge disadvantage :P
12:08 < michaelfolkson> There is an argument that there would be more focus on the Lightning Network if blocks were smaller and fee pressures were higher. Though it would make micropayments, small payments less feasible
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12:08 < michaelfolkson> Also true ghost43 :)
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22:46 < CubicEarth> I've been a bit out of the lighting dev loop lately... what's the status of AMP? Is it interoperable between implementations yet?
22:48 < CubicEarth> Also - my lnd node has been up and running with no maintenance for 6 months now. Maybe I needed to restart machine once or twice for something. I've got 7 long-lived channels, and approximately $60 worth of inbound capacity
22:51 < CubicEarth> I made a bunch of $5 or so payments to Bitrefill this past winter to keep my sim card topped off while traveling. All without issue and via Zap on my iphone, acting as the front end more my lnd node the runs on an old dell laptop.
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--- Log closed Sat May 16 00:00:22 2020