--- Log opened Tue Jul 07 00:00:13 2020
00:03 -!- cryptosoap [~cryptosoa@gateway/tor-sasl/cryptosoap] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:06 -!- cryptosoap [~cryptosoa@gateway/tor-sasl/cryptosoap] has joined #lightning-dev
00:15 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev
00:15 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
00:30 -!- dr-orlovsky [~dr-orlovs@adsl-62-167-101-63.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
00:30 -!- dr-orlovsky [~dr-orlovs@adsl-62-167-101-63.adslplus.ch] has joined #lightning-dev
00:40 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev
00:57 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
00:59 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
01:00 -!- riclas [~riclas@77.7.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lightning-dev
01:18 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has joined #lightning-dev
01:31 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has quit [Quit: __gotcha]
01:33 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@185.245.85.251] has joined #lightning-dev
02:28 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@185.245.85.251] has quit [Quit: Pavlenex]
02:29 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@185.245.85.251] has joined #lightning-dev
02:29 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@185.245.85.251] has quit [Client Quit]
02:32 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@2600:1700:dc40:3dd0:b407:1c33:63e9:77d] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
02:35 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@185.245.85.251] has joined #lightning-dev
03:15 -!- Barno [~Barno@93-34-214-192.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lightning-dev
03:24 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@185.245.85.251] has quit [Quit: Pavlenex]
03:26 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@185.245.85.251] has joined #lightning-dev
03:52 -!- reallll [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #lightning-dev
03:55 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
03:57 -!- reallll is now known as belcher
04:09 -!- dr-orlovsky [~dr-orlovs@adsl-62-167-101-63.adslplus.ch] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
04:29 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev
04:30 -!- vasild_ [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has joined #lightning-dev
04:34 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
04:34 -!- vasild_ is now known as vasild
05:02 -!- Relis [~Relis@148.252.128.38] has joined #lightning-dev
05:09 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
05:24 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@185.245.85.251] has quit [Quit: Pavlenex]
06:06 -!- slivera [~slivera@103.231.88.26] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:18 -!- rdymac [uid31665@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-enriwlirfdawouig] has joined #lightning-dev
06:26 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e0a:53c:a200:bb54:3be5:c3d0:9ce5] has quit [Quit: jonatack]
06:28 -!- dongcarl [~dongcarl@unaffiliated/dongcarl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:28 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev
06:29 -!- dongcarl [~dongcarl@unaffiliated/dongcarl] has joined #lightning-dev
06:30 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has joined #lightning-dev
06:31 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@185.245.85.251] has joined #lightning-dev
06:31 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e0a:53c:a200:bb54:3be5:c3d0:9ce5] has joined #lightning-dev
06:42 -!- dr-orlovsky [~dr-orlovs@194.230.155.196] has joined #lightning-dev
06:46 -!- dr-orlovsky [~dr-orlovs@194.230.155.196] has quit [Client Quit]
06:56 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:56 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has joined #lightning-dev
07:13 -!- dr-orlovsky [~dr-orlovs@194.230.155.196] has joined #lightning-dev
07:46 -!- Relis [~Relis@148.252.128.38] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
07:51 -!- knocte [knocte@booster.qnetp.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:53 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
07:56 -!- dr-orlovsky [~dr-orlovs@194.230.155.196] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
07:58 -!- Relis [~Relis@148.252.128.38] has joined #lightning-dev
08:05 -!- knocte [knocte@booster.qnetp.net] has joined #lightning-dev
08:10 -!- alko89 [~alko89@unaffiliated/alko89] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in]
08:10 -!- alko89 [~alko89@unaffiliated/alko89] has joined #lightning-dev
08:18 -!- knaccc [~knaccc@unaffiliated/knaccc] has joined #lightning-dev
08:33 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@185.245.85.251] has quit [Quit: Pavlenex]
08:52 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lightning-dev
09:41 -!- CubicEarth_ [~CubicEart@c-67-168-1-172.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
09:45 -!- fkinglag [~fkinglag@unaffiliated/fkinglag] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
09:55 -!- Barno [~Barno@93-34-214-192.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:59 -!- fkinglag [~fkinglag@unaffiliated/fkinglag] has joined #lightning-dev
10:05 -!- CubicEarth [~CubicEart@c-67-168-1-172.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lightning-dev
10:22 -!- zmnscpxj_ [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
10:36 -!- Barno [~Barno@93-34-214-192.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lightning-dev
10:41 -!- Barno [~Barno@93-34-214-192.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
11:51 -!- cryptoso- [~cryptosoa@gateway/tor-sasl/cryptosoap] has joined #lightning-dev
11:52 -!- cryptosoap [~cryptosoa@gateway/tor-sasl/cryptosoap] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
12:08 -!- ianthius [~ianthius@unaffiliated/ianthius] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
12:36 -!- Barno [~Barno@93-34-214-192.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lightning-dev
12:38 -!- Barno [~Barno@93-34-214-192.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:39 -!- Barno [~Barno@93-34-214-192.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lightning-dev
12:43 -!- ianthius [~ianthius@unaffiliated/ianthius] has joined #lightning-dev
12:57 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev
13:18 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has joined #lightning-dev
13:29 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
13:31 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev
13:45 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:46 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has joined #lightning-dev
13:50 -!- ianthius [~ianthius@unaffiliated/ianthius] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
14:02 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
14:03 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has joined #lightning-dev
14:06 -!- jodobear [3e393a54@62.57.58.84.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lightning-dev
14:06 -!- jodobear [3e393a54@62.57.58.84.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:12 -!- jodobear [3e393a54@62.57.58.84.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lightning-dev
14:12 -!- jodobear [3e393a54@62.57.58.84.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:13 -!- jodobear [3e393a54@62.57.58.84.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lightning-dev
14:15 < jodobear> Hi all! I'm trying to write a script that installs c-lightning on a server and set it up as a persistent hidden service. But, there's an installation step where you have to run lightningd to create the necessary folder and config files. Is there a way that i can do this without having to install lightningd on 3 different instances on the 3 networks
14:15 < jodobear> and wait for the files and folders to be created to then edit them for config? I apologise for such a basic question but, i couldn't find any such alternative to the suggested method on GH, Rusty's & K3tan's videos and other search results.
14:16 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev
14:17 < rusty> jodobear: you can just make .lightning/ directory and write config in there.  lightningd should do the rest at startup....
14:19 < jodobear> rusty that's great. Did assume it could be possible but, didn't try it yet and wanted to ask first. Thanks!
14:36 -!- Relis [~Relis@148.252.128.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
14:41 -!- Relis [~Relis@185.69.145.234] has joined #lightning-dev
14:46 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
14:52 -!- Barno [~Barno@93-34-214-192.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:56 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:56 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has joined #lightning-dev
15:01 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:01 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #lightning-dev
15:10 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
15:11 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:27 -!- Relis [~Relis@185.69.145.234] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
15:33 -!- Relis [~Relis@185.69.145.234] has joined #lightning-dev
15:43 -!- betawaffle [sid2730@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hcflwayqjfkuihlo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
15:43 -!- sugarpuff [sid92283@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ehkchjyruubcqjjd] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
15:43 -!- junderw [sid43070@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qobwswokehhlnmbr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
15:44 -!- petezz4_ [sid2429@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vbjnbgtvhwkmrdtl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
15:45 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit []
15:45 -!- junderw [sid43070@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vcvnynwtydotcohc] has joined #lightning-dev
15:45 -!- sugarpuff [sid92283@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lbebybthslehlxos] has joined #lightning-dev
15:45 -!- betawaffle [sid2730@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-quefinatiwwtqfxu] has joined #lightning-dev
15:47 -!- corollari [sid405633@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-poojaqlqfgengrwk] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
15:47 -!- dabura667 [sid43070@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ywabhhkuvuildibs] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
15:47 -!- jkczyz [sid419941@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tvumzoynjieujdzb] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
15:47 -!- scalability-junk [sid6422@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ocmnknjzatfgeyhx] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
15:49 -!- schmidty [sid297174@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kkwzljthzwlpiijv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
15:50 -!- sugarpuff [sid92283@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lbebybthslehlxos] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
15:50 -!- RubenSomsen [sid301948@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sqcvwbhnlmistayr] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
15:50 -!- gertjaap_ [sid322815@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xlyswmnkiftycmiw] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
15:50 -!- prusnak [sid403625@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vuyreppzkftfuwkk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
15:50 -!- valwal_ [sid334773@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qifsswwtchwsflxx] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
15:50 -!- rdymac [uid31665@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-enriwlirfdawouig] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
15:51 -!- jakesyl [sid56879@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-thokxtkwadjkerir] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
15:51 -!- robby938________ [sid238281@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rgypwogvziphllzo] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
15:51 -!- Aleru [sid403553@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-khsttisuhildsbqy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
15:51 -!- betawaffle [sid2730@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-quefinatiwwtqfxu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
15:51 -!- junderw [sid43070@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vcvnynwtydotcohc] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
15:51 -!- robmyers [uid14471@gnu/social/robmyers] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
15:51 -!- fjahr [sid374480@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rttuizyvrxqquuxg] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
15:51 -!- rompert_ [sid13298@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fwdhjgrohpuunfuo] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
15:51 -!- CodeShark___ [sid126576@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gplexnieuwjdwore] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
15:51 -!- moneyball [sid299869@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zmybwwdmtxncwdub] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
15:51 -!- wallet42_ [sid154231@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-csisqgiedfeysahh] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
15:51 -!- yakitorifoodie__ [sid338452@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zirvutmhokrshvvh] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
15:51 -!- digi_james [sid281632@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fjepoohrzcwjyqay] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
15:51 -!- felixweis [sid154231@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-suspeprsccnintnc] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
15:51 -!- zmanian_ [sid113594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ujxhqpnmykmwfvpp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
15:52 -!- arij [uid225068@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lsgtsnsnrvvlrhth] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
15:52 -!- ThisAsYou__ [sid214210@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yklocimszclqncjb] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
15:52 -!- arik_ [sid402902@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-evgmwravgdaflwug] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
15:52 -!- dburkett [sid411344@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sevnlpjqbjrdqzpc] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
15:52 -!- chm-diederichs_ [sid360714@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xrqinsifxppgqdfd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
15:52 -!- drbrule [sid395654@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xofavhinmgitfany] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
15:54 -!- __gotcha [~Thunderbi@plone/gotcha] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
16:00 -!- fkinglag [~fkinglag@unaffiliated/fkinglag] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
16:13 -!- Relis [~Relis@185.69.145.234] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
16:14 -!- fkinglag [~fkinglag@unaffiliated/fkinglag] has joined #lightning-dev
16:24 -!- Barno [~Barno@93-34-214-192.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lightning-dev
16:28 -!- norisg [~nobody123@ipservice-092-209-139-225.092.209.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has joined #lightning-dev
16:30 -!- vasild_ [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has joined #lightning-dev
16:31 -!- norisg_ [~nobody123@ipservice-092-209-139-225.092.209.pools.vodafone-ip.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
16:33 -!- jodobear [3e393a54@62.57.58.84.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lightning-dev []
16:34 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:34 -!- vasild_ is now known as vasild
16:35 -!- Relis [~Relis@185.69.145.234] has joined #lightning-dev
16:36 -!- Relis [~Relis@185.69.145.234] has quit [Client Quit]
16:38 -!- Relis [~Relis@185.69.145.234] has joined #lightning-dev
16:44 -!- jb55 [~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55] has joined #lightning-dev
17:00 -!- riclas [~riclas@77.7.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:01 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev
17:02 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Client Quit]
17:02 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #lightning-dev
17:04 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has left #lightning-dev []
17:16 < knaccc> hey peeps - could someone confirm the following please: if i (now or in a hypothetical future) deposit USD in an exchange that supports lightning, will i essentially be able to ask the exchange for a lightning payment instead of an on-chain BTC payment, and have it set up such that if the exchange were to ever close out the payment channel, the funds would be returned to my btc address in my own
17:16 < knaccc> private wallet that i control, instead of the funds returning to the exchange's wallet? thus meaning that it might be possible for me to exchange usd for lightning, make a few lightning payments, later send any remaining funds back to the exchange to convert back to USD, and never cause an on-chain tx to occur?
17:18 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@75-25-138-252.lightspeed.plalca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lightning-dev
17:22 -!- nicolasburtey [~nicolasbu@172.58.140.11] has joined #lightning-dev
17:25 -!- Barno [~Barno@93-34-214-192.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
17:25 < ja> that's not a dev question
17:53 -!- cryptoso- [~cryptosoa@gateway/tor-sasl/cryptosoap] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:53 -!- cryptosoap [~cryptosoa@gateway/tor-sasl/cryptosoap] has joined #lightning-dev
18:05 -!- nicolasb_ [~nicolasbu@174.137.69.102] has joined #lightning-dev
18:08 -!- nicolasburtey [~nicolasbu@172.58.140.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
18:11 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:12 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lightning-dev
18:16 -!- vasild [~vd@gateway/tor-sasl/vasild] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
18:17 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
18:18 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lightning-dev
18:20 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:25 -!- Relis [~Relis@185.69.145.234] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
18:27 -!- slivera [~slivera@103.231.88.10] has joined #lightning-dev
19:05 < knaccc> j #lightning
19:06 < knaccc> i'd ask in #lightning but it requires a key to get in. sorry, i didn't know where else to ask
19:07 <+roasbeef> I don't think #lightning is actually bitcoin lightnign stuff? 
19:07 -!- zmnscpxj_ [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has joined #lightning-dev
19:08 <+roasbeef> knaccc: so depends on how the exchange set up LN, would imagine they'd have wumob-ish channels up to service withdrawl/deposit, so you wouldn't be able to insturct them to co-op close _just_ your accoun tbalance 
19:09 <+roasbeef> assuming they had a channel per user (not really advisible) you'd be able to give them an upfront shutdown addr, and have that be used for co-op close 
19:10 <+roasbeef> for the second part, again depending on their integration, yeah you could basically treat it as a "fiat hot wallet" and issue a withdraw in order to make a payment on LN, they might have limit son the smallest withdrawl size tho 
19:10 -!- Barno [~Barno@93-34-214-192.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lightning-dev
19:11 < knaccc> roasbeef oh i see, yes, good point about a channel per user. so therefore the norm would have be to always withdraw btc to a lightning wallet, and incur that on-chain tx fee, you're saying? because the alternative is that you're not really in control of your funds if you went direct from fiat->lightning with the exchange
19:11 < zmnscpxj_> What on-chain fee when withdrawing to a *lightning* wallet?
19:11 <+roasbeef> what on-chain fees? if you just withdraw into an _LN_ wallet 
19:12 <+roasbeef> I mean it's a custodial exchange right? so you're not in control anyway with how things are usually implemented...
19:13 < zmnscpxj_> it really really depends on how the exchange structures itself
19:13 < zmnscpxj_> for me, ideally, it would be that it is custodial only on your fiat funds, then when you convert to BTC, it automatically gets sent to your LN wallet
19:13 < knaccc> i guess i should ask it this way: what would you expect the norm to be, for a user that wants to use lightning, but not let the exchange have custody of the funds?
19:14 <+roasbeef> yeh that would be cool zmnscpxj_ 
19:14 < zmnscpxj_> what I mentioned
19:14 <+roasbeef> yeh if buy means auto withdrawl, then you minimize the amount of coins you have on the exchange at all times 
19:14 < knaccc> maybe i've misunderstood how LN works. it's possible to have an LN wallet that doesn't need to do on-chain btc transactions in order to be fully in control of the funds it owns?
19:15 < zmnscpxj_> it needs to do at least one onchain BTC to get a channel
19:15 < zmnscpxj_> once the channel is established to *any* part of the network, you should be able to get any number of txes
19:15 < zmnscpxj_> up to the limits you have, i.e. channel capacity, direction, etc.
19:15 < zmnscpxj_> "should" *cough*
19:15 <+roasbeef> knaccc: I think we're also assuming the exchange already has channels set up, then they multi-plex users onto those channels 
19:16 < zmnscpxj_> And we also assume that channel funds are "fully in control", even when not committed onchain
19:18 < knaccc> ok so to clarify: if i buy 1 BTC on an exchange, and then want that to exist as LN funds over which I have full custody, and then later want to charge up my LN funds with an extra 1 BTC, what are the total number of on-chain txs required?
19:18 < zmnscpxj_> In theory, one.  Just to establish a large 1BTC+extracapacity channel.
19:19 < zmnscpxj_> (channels need to have reserves, etc., you might want to neglect them, or not)
19:19 < zmnscpxj_> wumbo though
19:21 < knaccc> i guess i need to re-read everything i've read about LN to understand it. So even if own 0.1 btc and then I do an initial on-chain tx for 0.1 btc, I can then go to an exchange and get 1btc now, another 1btc next week, and have full custody of 2.1 btc inside LN?
19:21 < knaccc> why is that initial 0.1btc on-chain tx even required?
19:21 < zmnscpxj_> no, that is when you hit capacity limits
19:21 < zmnscpxj_> you can only hodl up to the initial channel capacity
19:21 < zmnscpxj_> (minus reserves etc)
19:22 < zmnscpxj_> however, if you *spend* the 0.1btc, then buy another 0.09 btc, that is fine
19:22 < zmnscpxj_> your total amount of bought/spent can exceed 2.1 btc or more
19:22 < zmnscpxj_> you are just limited to having 0.1BTC at any one time
19:22 < zmnscpxj_> (minus reserves)
19:24 < knaccc> right, so i need to do an on-chain tx for the maximum amount of btc i think i'll ever need to send someone in a single LN tx, and from then on i can keep recharging from the exchange without any on-chain txs, and keeping full custody, subject to never having more than that aforementioned maximum amount in my LN wallet
19:24 < zmnscpxj_> yes, something like that
19:24 < zmnscpxj_> for me ideally, the future will be something like this:
19:24 < zmnscpxj_> you are an employee pulling a regular salary, and you have 1 or more channels totalling capacity of slightly greater than your salary
19:25 < zmnscpxj_> you get your salary, which fills up your channels
19:25 < zmnscpxj_> you allocate some of your salary to cold storage savings, which you use a Lightning Loop to put in your cold storage wallet
19:25 < zmnscpxj_> then you pay your bills etc, depleting your channel funds
19:26 < zmnscpxj_> and you leave an allowance for yourself for whatever other things you want
19:26 < zmnscpxj_> and on the next payday you get paid again, refilling your channels
19:26 < zmnscpxj_> something like that
19:26 < knaccc> zmnscpxj_ perfect, thank you very much for explaining (you too, roasbeef)
19:27  * roasbeef tips his imaginary hat and bows
19:27  * zmnscpxj_ waves abashedly instead
19:27 <+roasbeef> kek
19:57 -!- guestabcd1234 [495eca00@73.94.202.0] has joined #lightning-dev
19:59 -!- guestabcd1234 [495eca00@73.94.202.0] has left #lightning-dev []
20:02 < knaccc> zmnscpxj_ when you said "In theory, one", i think you must have meant that two on-chain txs would be required, one when i withdrew funds from the exchange, and a second when i opened a channel, right? so i'd do one, but there would be two in total?
20:03 < zmnscpxj_> well, for a *really* LN-ready exchange, they could *create* the channel to you and *then* pay you on Lightning
20:03 < zmnscpxj_> so, ideally, one
20:03 < zmnscpxj_> possibly even batched
20:03 < knaccc> zmnscpxj_ oh i thought you said that was "not advisable"?
20:04 < zmnscpxj_> not necessarily the exchange directly --- they could hire a service that specializes in making channels
20:04 < zmnscpxj_> or run one themselves
20:04 < zmnscpxj_> they just have to trigger the creation, and it could be batched, and the node that does it on Lightning is specialized for large numbers of channels, etc.
20:05 < knaccc> got it, and then the scenario you're describing could make the refund address my private wallet address instead of the exchange's wallet, right? 
20:05 < zmnscpxj_> see Turbo channels, which is basically  this
20:05 < zmnscpxj_> yes
20:05 < knaccc> perfect, ok thanks again
20:06 < zmnscpxj_> or yes, it could be one onchain transaction from the exchange, then you pay your own fees to build your channel
20:06 < zmnscpxj_> anything that reduces onchain footprint is incentivized because it saves fees
20:06 < knaccc> yes that would be great
20:07 < zmnscpxj_> and theoretical stuff like the exchange passing around a PSBT to your wallet and stuff using OP_CTV would help facilitate this as well.
20:07 < knaccc> i wonder how upset people would get if most users skipped paying the fees by just letting the exchange operate a custodial wallet for them
20:08 < zmnscpxj_> I would be upset: https://zmnscpxj.github.io/bitcoin/custodial.html
20:11 < knaccc> i hope the exchanges and users don't upset you then... i have a feeling though that skipping the tx fees would be a powerful incentive to upset you
20:12 < zmnscpxj_> *shrug*
20:13 < zmnscpxj_> custodiality is easy, it is the default since forever, which is why the banking world is set up the way it is
20:13 < zmnscpxj_> personally I am in Bitcoin for the possibility of an alternative, so custodiality is not particularly interesting to me
20:13 < knaccc> maybe there will be enough exchange hacks/frauds that people will not want to take the risk of a custodial wallet
20:13 < zmnscpxj_> MtGox is not enough?
20:14 < knaccc> people have short memories
20:14 < zmnscpxj_> too ancient history LOL?
20:14 < zmnscpxj_> those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to be the next MtGox
20:14 -!- Barno [~Barno@93-34-214-192.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
20:15 < knaccc> hey i know, we can solve this with a central bank that can print btc :)
20:15 < zmnscpxj_> good idea. Now go write a BIP and ask luke-jr for a BIP number
20:15 < zmnscpxj_> LOL
20:16 < knaccc> heh, ok thanks zmnscpxj_, 'night
20:16 < zmnscpxj_> good morning!
20:49 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@75-25-138-252.lightspeed.plalca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.7.5 - https://znc.in]
20:49 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lightning-dev
20:58 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@75-25-138-252.lightspeed.plalca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lightning-dev
21:09 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:09 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lightning-dev
21:15 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:21 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lightning-dev
21:29 -!- Barno [~Barno@93-34-214-192.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lightning-dev
21:42 -!- slivera [~slivera@103.231.88.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:49 -!- th0th [~th0th@gateway/tor-sasl/th0th] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:55 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@75-25-138-252.lightspeed.plalca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
21:59 -!- cryptosoap [~cryptosoa@gateway/tor-sasl/cryptosoap] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:00 -!- cryptosoap [~cryptosoa@gateway/tor-sasl/cryptosoap] has joined #lightning-dev
22:06 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:06 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lightning-dev
22:11 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
22:27 -!- Barno [~Barno@93-34-214-192.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:38 -!- zmnscpxj__ [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has joined #lightning-dev
22:39 -!- zmnscpxj_ [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:47 -!- yzernik [~yzernik@75-25-138-252.lightspeed.plalca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lightning-dev
22:50 -!- Barno [~Barno@93-34-214-192.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lightning-dev
22:57 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
23:09 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #lightning-dev
23:16 -!- ThomasV [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has joined #lightning-dev
23:30 -!- Barno [~Barno@93-34-214-192.ip51.fastwebnet.it] has quit []
23:58 -!- t-bast [~t-bast@2a01:e34:efde:97d0:c487:1a43:e9c7:5066] has joined #lightning-dev
--- Log closed Wed Jul 08 00:00:13 2020