--- Log opened Tue Jul 28 00:00:32 2020 00:09 -!- rdymac [uid31665@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ancxdjineteceqys] has joined #lightning-dev 00:13 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:18 -!- arowser_ [~arowser1@67.230.166.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:24 -!- arowser_ [~arowser1@67.230.166.11] has joined #lightning-dev 00:25 < sword_smith> Jeg reading up on MPP and I saw that there is a two minute timeout per HTLC in an MPP. I feel like that is a very long time, wouldn't five seconds be more appropriate if you are buying a cup of coffee in a cafe? 00:25 < sword_smith> s/Jeg/Just/ 00:26 < zmnscpxj__> That would arguably lead to worse behavior 00:26 < zmnscpxj__> the timeout exists so that liquidity is not locked up by partial payments remaining partial 00:27 < zmnscpxj__> Suppose I have split my payments into 2. 00:27 < zmnscpxj__> I manage to get one to reach you, the payee 00:27 < zmnscpxj__> However, I have difficulty finding a path for the second sub-payment 00:27 < zmnscpxj__> and it takes me more than 5 seconds to find a viable path 00:27 < zmnscpxj__> in that case, the first payment is then rejected 00:28 < zmnscpxj__> and I have to do the same work again of finding a new viable path for my first sub-payment with the second sub-payment locked with you 00:28 < zmnscpxj__> and if re-finding a new viable path for my first sub-payment takes more than 5 seconds, again my second sub-payment is cancelled and I have to do yet more work finding more paths 00:29 < zmnscpxj__> (note also that this timeout only exists for MPP... if the cpffee is very cheap then I might not even bother splitting the payment) 00:29 -!- nicolasburtey [~nicolasbu@24-116-195-80.cpe.sparklight.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:30 -!- nicolasburtey [~nicolasbu@24-116-195-80.cpe.sparklight.net] has joined #lightning-dev 00:31 < sword_smith> OK. But actual wallet implementations will struggle to deliver a good user experience under these conditions. 00:32 < zmnscpxj__> Yes. MPP is somewhat experimental still 00:32 < zmnscpxj__> we have no good heuristics for how to split, for example 00:33 < sword_smith> Will my lightning node abstract away MPPs such that it automagically makes/receives some of the payments as MPP if I am on the latest version? 00:33 < zmnscpxj__> it should, yes 00:33 < zmnscpxj__> "should" being operative word 00:33 < zmnscpxj__> again, we have no decent heuristics 00:34 < sword_smith> So as a user that decision MPP vs. single HTLC will be abstracted away from me? 00:34 < zmnscpxj__> and there is an edge-case possibility that a non-MPP payment would work but an MPP does not because of bugs in the MPP code, bad heuristics tickling bad behavior 00:34 < zmnscpxj__> it should be, yes 00:35 < zmnscpxj__> c-lightning 0.9.0 rc3 has a complicated MPP algorithm, for instance 00:35 < sword_smith> That's probably a good decision, although the long hanging times worry me a bit. 00:35 < zmnscpxj__> note that nothing prevents a forwarding node from hanging your MPP partial payment for much longer than 2 minutes 00:35 < sword_smith> I implemented a web wallet which offers lightning transactions 00:36 < zmnscpxj__> the 2 minutes is a guideline at the *payee* end 00:36 < zmnscpxj__> forwarding nodes have no idea whether a payment going through it is an MPP or not 00:36 < sword_smith> And I have had some problems with hanging Lightning transactions already. 00:36 < zmnscpxj__> and can grief you, accidentally, if e.g. it crashes 00:36 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has joined #lightning-dev 00:37 < zmnscpxj__> the supposed solution to that is the "stuckless" payments by the nayutaco developers 00:37 < zmnscpxj__> which requires PTLS 00:37 < zmnscpxj__> PTLCs 00:37 < zmnscpxj__> which requires Taproot 00:37 < zmnscpxj__> But note that you still lock up liquidity even in the "stuckless" payments --- it is just that you can give more payment attempts than the amount to be paid 00:37 < zmnscpxj__> at the same time 00:38 < zmnscpxj__> and once the payment has been claimed, you can just wait out the other stuck liquidities 00:39 < zmnscpxj__> is my explanation satisfactory sword_smith? 00:40 < sword_smith> zmnscpxj__: Yes, thank you. 00:42 < zmnscpxj__> np 00:46 -!- arowser_ [~arowser1@67.230.166.11] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:46 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 00:48 < sword_smith> I just read an article about MPP but some other resources would be nice if zou have anzthing that is easily digestible, zmnscpxj__. 00:49 < zmnscpxj__> there are no good resources for it yet, because we do not have decent heuristics for how to do MPP 00:49 < zmnscpxj__> I could tell you a little how c-lightning does it 00:50 < zmnscpxj__> For example, before we do any attempts, we split a large payment into multiple payments of 10,000 satoshi each 00:51 < zmnscpxj__> on the assumption that HTLCs of this amount are likely to be both: (a) acceptably large that forwarding nodes will not worry about it getting lost in fees in case of unilateral closure (b) sufficiently small they are likely to succeed in routing 00:51 < sword_smith> I am actually running c-lightning so that's great :) 00:51 < sword_smith> On v. 0.8.3 now, I think. 00:51 < zmnscpxj__> yes, 0.9.0 is planned to have mpp 00:51 < zmnscpxj__> there are probably bugs 00:52 < zmnscpxj__> 0.9.0 rc2 showed a lot of bugs with MPP, including splitting up the payment into 200+ sub-payments because of degenerate behavior in the heuristics 00:53 < zmnscpxj__> or that bug where we would give up on a subpayment because we forgot there were other alternative routehints the main payment had 00:53 -!- Pavlenex [~Thunderbi@141.98.103.251] has joined #lightning-dev 00:53 < zmnscpxj__> rc3 seems at least "reasonably okay" in terms of MPP 00:54 -!- ThomasV_ [~thomasv@unaffiliated/thomasv] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:54 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:55 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e0a:53c:a200:bb54:3be5:c3d0:9ce5] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:55 < zmnscpxj__> though we have a few more commits on top of rc3 and probably will have an rc4 soon as well 00:58 -!- arowser_ [~arowser1@67.230.166.11.16clouds.com] has joined #lightning-dev 01:13 -!- arowser_ [~arowser1@67.230.166.11.16clouds.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:13 -!- arowser_ [~arowser1@67.230.166.11] has joined #lightning-dev 01:18 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:19 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has joined #lightning-dev 01:37 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:46 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #lightning-dev 01:57 -!- dfmb_ [~dfmb_@unaffiliated/dfmb/x-4009105] has joined #lightning-dev 01:58 -!- arowser_ [~arowser1@67.230.166.11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:58 -!- dfmb_ 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long we wait when we close a channel unilaterally? 100 blocks? 12:54 < cdecker> ahmetkurt95: that depends on the implementation, and most will wait indefinitely for the peer to return since unilateral closes are really more of an emergency exit 12:55 < lndbot> are you sure? 12:55 < lndbot> i am sure there is limit like 100 blocks 12:58 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:59 < cdecker> Not in the spec, no 13:06 < lndbot> very interesting. 13:31 -!- tryphe_ [~tryphe@unaffiliated/tryphe] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:34 -!- tryphe [~tryphe@unaffiliated/tryphe] has joined #lightning-dev 13:45 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has joined #lightning-dev 13:58 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:05 -!- Madars [~null@unaffiliated/madars] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 14:22 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@174-29-8-246.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lightning-dev 14:29 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Jul 29 00:00:09 2020